Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

cool40 April 21st 2013, 12:35 am

rmcomprandy wrote:
cool40 wrote:a file works too.

How do you hold the tolerance to .002" ...? That's one great pair of hands,

tolerance? who said anything about tolerance. that shit dont count for custom builds. Razz

Dave De April 21st 2013, 7:59 am

rmcomprandy wrote:A magnetic table surface grinder works great ... a .002" flat seems about right for most lifters.
Even on the inner plunger of a hydraulic lifter if you wish to make them act like a "Rhodes".

Thanks Randy, even better than a Bridge Port. I have access to a small surface grinder. I have not used it but it will be the best for this alteration.

Lem Evans April 21st 2013, 12:11 pm

Dave, can you get me a measurement of the o.d. of your lifter?

Randy's grinder idea sounds cool.

Dave De April 21st 2013, 12:27 pm

Lem Evans wrote:Dave, can you get me a measurement of the o.d. of your lifter?

Randy's grinder idea sounds cool.

Sure, I'll measure them all next to the oil hole this week and post them. Rather than cut one I'm going to grind them all shooting for a cut of .0017 deep. The old grinder should be able to hold +/- .0002 by strap clamping the lifter into a V block then holding the V-block to the table with the magnet.

Dave

rmcomprandy April 21st 2013, 4:48 pm

Lem Evans wrote:Dave, can you get me a measurement of the o.d. of your lifter?

Randy's grinder idea sounds cool.

Lem, I have done probably 100 or more sets of "edge orifice" flat tappet lifters over the years and made several "Rhodes Type" hydraulic lifters; even ones out of a Chevette for a oval track series somewhere in the Carolinas.

It works for sure.

BradB April 22nd 2013, 11:47 pm

Dave De wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:Dave, can you get me a measurement of the o.d. of your lifter?

Randy's grinder idea sounds cool.

Sure, I'll measure them all next to the oil hole this week and post them. Rather than cut one I'm going to grind them all shooting for a cut of .0017 deep. The old grinder should be able to hold +/- .0002 by strap clamping the lifter into a V block then holding the V-block to the table with the magnet.

Dave

Make sure you de-magnetize your lifters after you grind them.

Dave De April 24th 2013, 7:11 am

Lifter bodies all measure .8741 to .8743 diameter at the hole.
I used a Bridgeport with an 1/8" end mill where I bumped the diameter near the hole and milled a flat .002 deep.
I'm getting more oil now when running the pump with a drill but if I did it again I'd go .003 deep or open up one restrictor from .06 to .08.

quick 52 April 25th 2013, 10:35 pm

Dave De wrote:Lifter bodies all measure .8741 to .8743 diameter at the hole.
I used a Bridgeport with an 1/8" end mill where I bumped the diameter near the hole and milled a flat .002 deep.
I'm getting more oil now when running the pump with a drill but if I did it again I'd go .003 deep or open up one restrictor from .06 to .08.

Dave was there a problem with the old engine getting oil up top.. Is it only with the new block or are the lifter a new piece .. good luck with the new build are you going the the breakfast club sat.

Dave De April 26th 2013, 9:17 am

quick 52 wrote:
Dave De wrote:Lifter bodies all measure .8741 to .8743 diameter at the hole.
I used a Bridgeport with an 1/8" end mill where I bumped the diameter near the hole and milled a flat .002 deep.
I'm getting more oil now when running the pump with a drill but if I did it again I'd go .003 deep or open up one restrictor from .06 to .08.
Dave was there a problem with the old engine getting oil up top.. Is it only with the new block or are the lifter a new piece .. good luck with the new build are you going the the breakfast club sat.

I had these Morels on my old D9TE block and they oiled the top end okay. The A460 block must be different with the lifter bores tighter or the lifter gallies are smaller. I noticed that the oil pressure dropped a little as well.
breakfast Club?? maybe if the Mustang is ready for the run.

Lem Evans May 17th 2013, 8:58 pm

richter69 wrote:I had a fresh set of Morels put in when I did the past build, I didnt start having probles until anout 1/2 way into the 2nd season (ford thunder race in tn) after that race I found the exh tip on #5 burnt up. upping the oil press made no diff, in fact nkne of the exh were oiling worth a damn. I know the lifterbore clearance didnt get smaller. My theory is the proximity hole for the oiling is on the cam side of lifter and the more extreme angle of the valve placement side loads the lifter to the bore....... where oil needs to be getting to the hole. Maybe as time went by the lifter and bore wall wear took out all the little imperfections that would allow oil to pass to the hole.

Maybe the green oil was a crutch to the little oil it did get, for the tn race it had vr1 in it, all I know is it damn sure didnt run up there like it did here, vr1 and chewing up p rod tips onnthe exh side.

bottom line is a guy needs to check stuff over and not assume its all working likie its suppossed to.

I went to US 60 today to check out the Ford race their. There was a little rain that kept the cars off the track ...upside was we got to visit etc. during the down time. On trip back home Wes Littrell called and said they were gonna get a few passes...but...he killed # 8 exh pushrod at start up. Come to find out the only change he made over the winter was from the 836 comp lifters to the morel. A460 block.

Dave C. May 17th 2013, 9:26 pm

Sounds like it can happen to anyone. Crying or Very sad

cool40 May 17th 2013, 10:46 pm

some folks get carried away with restrictors,IMO. that with the lifter design can cause problems.

richter69 May 17th 2013, 11:56 pm

Not restrictor problem, or not completly.

cool40 May 17th 2013, 11:59 pm

richter69 wrote:Not restrictor problem, or not completly.

said the guy with a fk'd up pushrod Razz

Lem Evans May 18th 2013, 12:33 pm

cool40 wrote: some folks get carried away with restrictors,IMO. that with the lifter design can cause problems.

Relatve to the restrictor thing.....I got a call tues. evening from a customer that none of his new morel lifters would oil. It is a D9 block which does not have restrictors. Luckily he had noticed this thread and primed his engine before the intake manifold was install.

rmcomprandy December 9th 2013, 6:35 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
David Cole wrote:I have those lifters in my A460 block. Oiling is correct. No need to notch or do anything to the lifters.
But....my block was honed to the correct clearance.

YES ... those lifters require a downward motion of the lifter body to force oil from the groove to the hole via lifter bore clearance. You won't see much oil up top regardless of the oil pressure unless the engine is running.

EDIT; According to them, these lifters were designed to run with NO other type oil restriction to the upper end. If you have an "A" type block with lifter bore oil restriction, it needs to be removed or the lifter needs modification.

Randy, I've heard the same more than once. Lifter mfrs. do not care if one kicks the rods out....just send all the oil to their lifters. But at the end of the day when the 'groove' is there seems there is plenty of oil for the pushrod and the lifter..... the lifter person[s] miss the whole point.... it aint all about how much oil is available to a lifter....it's about how much, if any, gets to the feed hole at the o.d. of the lifter to feed the pushrod.

"Kick the rods out"...?
This might ONLY be applicable on an aftermarket or "A" block as the passenger side of a production block ALWAYS has full oil volume and pressure unless those lifter bores are bushed.
With the passenger side lifter gallery doubling as the main oil gallery, the oil going to the top needs to be restricted BY the lifter or a restricted pushrod; there is no other way.

It is real easy for a knowledgeable engine builder to put that flat on the lifter body but, really difficult to put that metal back if it gets used on a stock production block.

EDIT: The CRANE roller lifters used in the FRPP big block crate motors which uses a stock production block do NOT have those flats or cuts connecting the lifter oiling hole to the lifter groove, either.

richter69 December 9th 2013, 6:39 pm

Holy f-ckin' 6 month update......

Lem Evans December 9th 2013, 8:30 pm

Last edited by rmcomprandy on Mon 9 Dec - 17:46; edited 3 times in total

Having a bad day are you Randy?

"It is real easy for a knowledgeable engine builder to put that flat on the lifter body but, really difficult to put that metal back if it gets used on a stock production block."

Please see my post that the Morel lifters in a D9 block [read this as a production block] had to be grooved.

Diddly December 10th 2013, 12:31 am

I think my engine may be the one Lem is referencing. Yes production d9 deal, ran comps in it the year previous and no oiling issues when primed on the stand. Probably primed it for nearly 15 mins on and off with the morels, nearly zero oil to top end. Even tried rotating it over. Chucked the comps back in and oiled no problem, can't remember the the difference in body diameter but the morel was obviously larger. Ended up killing the flats .002" deep if I recall.

rmcomprandy December 10th 2013, 1:09 am

Lem Evans wrote:Last edited by rmcomprandy on Mon 9 Dec - 17:46; edited 3 times in total

Having a bad day are you Randy?

Yea, the typo's were all over the place and the spelling was terrible and it took me that many times to get it right, LOL.

rmcomprandy December 10th 2013, 1:18 am

Lem Evans wrote:

Please see my post that the Morel lifters in a D9 block [read this as a production block] had to be grooved.

Yea, that is the opinion of some people and how they saw it with a stock production engine block. Without running the engine to provide lifter inertia, very little oil gets to the top when priming ... if any.
There were several thousand 514 crate motors sold by FRPP without this oiling problem and those Crane manufactured lifters have the exact same oiling provisions as the Morel; (those FRPP lifters are a half thou smaller in diameter though).

Lem Evans December 10th 2013, 10:04 am

I have some of the old Crane lifter in hand I'll post a picture when i get a chance......the design of the Crane body has little in common with the Morel lifters.

Carl December 10th 2013, 2:13 pm

I encountered a top end oiling problem with a D9/Morel combination too, and running the engine didn't improve the situation. I screwed around with grooving the lifters, and it certainly allowed for top end oiling, but I didn't feel comfortable in making a determination of weather the groove was too little or too much. Installing Comp lifters resolved the issue with no other changes.

I'm also not going to sell a customer buying parts a set of lifters that requires him to either take apart his engine to modify his lifter bore clearance, or grind on the shiny new "precision made part" to get it to work when there are other options that will drop in and work properly from the get.

richter69 December 10th 2013, 2:36 pm

snake handlin'.........and not the type Blake wants neither.......

rmcomprandy December 10th 2013, 6:30 pm

Lem Evans wrote:I have some of the old Crane lifter in hand I'll post a picture when i get a chance......the design of the Crane body has little in common with the Morel lifters.

The newer Morerl lifters certainly have a different type oil band around the lifter, (the top of the line Morel really doesn't have a BAND like the Crane FRPP), however the small oil hole to the top in the FRPP lifters I have here is about .080" above the band with no flat spot or groove connection between them.

I think Morel makes two different lifter bodies also as the ones in a customer's engine looked almost like the Cranes with a full oil band but, said MOREL across the tie bar.
Maybe they discontinued one body type and went to the other ... I will have to find out for sure at the PRI trade show.

EDIT: I just went and spent some time looking-up that engine and those Morel lifters were #4718, (if they still have them). They didn't look at all like the Morel's in the previous photo here as they had a complete oil band.
I guess I will have to find out how many different solid roller lifters Morel makes and distributes for the Big Block Ford.

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