main girdle

Cracker Jacks are good.

rmcomprandy wrote:

werneil wrote:with factory block, YES , how can it not help hold everything together , when assembled it becomes a structural part of the block  !!

Adding structure, (not even helpful structure as the older girdles used to offer but, people didn't buy them because it was required to machine the main caps flat), when the metal itself failing is the problem, doesn't solve anything except, (as you say), to keep it all tied together when it breaks.

The older girdles used to somewhat support the weaker main caps.

back in the stone age main girdles weren't these mass produced stamped crank seat belts.

The blocks that ran em, mainly the original top fuel stuff trying to make stock 396 dodge hemi crap hold onto 3000hp in the day, used a complete cap cover that tied into the pan rail. It was basically a 2" to 3" extension of the pans, mains etc. Using every fastener on the bottom of the block to hold the crank in. Then the pan was added on.

Modern stuff.... almost as usefull as the valley girdles. Aluminum variants even adding to premature failure as it expands and contracts at different rates than the iron and pushes and pulls the main bolts and caps in ways that a simple build would never do.

Canton, Blue Thunder, Trick Flow, all good girdles. Stamped Ebay stuff, junk with junk hardware. I've seen the DSS aluminium units full of cracks too, but that could be a very bad tune, or the difference in expansion another poster mentioned. Alot of guys here run N/A, but many also run power adders. I'm in the second group, running supercharged. All I can post is my 35 years of experience with them and that's been ZERO bottom end failures, so either I'm a good tuner, or I'm getting some help from descent quality girdles. I wouldn't run a 2 bolt block with out one. If I had a CJ block I'd still use one. Only the huge caps of the A460 block impress me enough that I'd leave it off . That's just my opinion, and I'm in the minority on the forums, and that's ok. Being a descent tuner is more important than running a girdle, or having a 4 bolted block is far superior. If your a descent tuner and are going to push a 2 bolt block hard you might want to consider a girdle. If you spend enough time at your local machine shop you will now see many OEM car manufacturers now produce their engines with main girdles, including many of the high end imports. Feel free to ponder that one.....

main girdle should be good for some 4.90's.........

HERO PARTS FOR SURE ! But only "Pro Comp" brand ! There's are made of cardboard.... oil resistant cardboard that is, full race of course !

blown473 wrote:  If you spend enough time at your local machine shop you will now see many OEM car manufacturers now produce their engines with main girdles, including many of the high end imports. Feel free to ponder that one.....

Those you'll see in OEM's are part of the bottom end structure; NOT just tied together with the main bolts.

The best main girdles are the light weight ones. They are easy to handle but,heavy enough that my Bills/Dunns don't fly off the desk,even w/my BigASS fan running.I would highly recommend the DSS model ,they look great when polished.  

OEM's are not all part of the structure, I have seen Toyota & Lexus that are, and GM 6 cyls that are in fact stamped pieces bolted on. Depends on the car maker. The factories want to produce engines as cheaply as possible so they would not add the cost of any girdle or crank support unless it was needed. If we had a penny for every time this debate happened we could pass out free A460 blocks to everyone on the forum and be done with it ! As I said before, build your engine/house any way you want, your the one that has to live with the results. I'll stick with what has a proven track record in my own personal engine builds. Spend money on some other parts if that's what you feel is a better investment.

I now have a nice shinny paperweight for my desk. A little big but i have to use it for something

Larry Williams wrote:I now have a nice shinny paperweight for my desk.   A little big but i have to use it for something

Some people use them in the bottom end of their engine to hold the windage tray, LOL.

Both great ideas, and probably applicable to those making Briggs & Straton horsepower with their 385 series.

blown473 wrote:Both great ideas, and probably applicable to those making Briggs & Straton horsepower with their 385 series.

I bet there are more out there making alot more power than you will ever running without a girdle...

blown473 wrote:Both great ideas, and probably applicable to those making Briggs & Straton horsepower with their 385 series.

There is an old Islamic saying if 3 men call you a Donkey then have yourself fitted for a bridle.

Seems like the conscious is Girdles suck.

they just dont really do any good is all, no bang for the buck.

rmcomprandy wrote:

Larry Williams wrote:I now have a nice shinny paperweight for my desk.   A little big but i have to use it for something

Some people use them in the bottom end of their engine to hold the windage tray, LOL.

the only way i could get the pan to fit with the girdle is to machine about an inch of the thickness off an entire side of the girdle. Even removing the screen out of the pan didn't help with the fit.

richter69 wrote:they just dont really do any good is all, no bang for the buck.

SOME do so, don't paint them all with the same wide brush but, those which work are steel and require machining of the stock main caps. People who build engines in their own back yard don't seem to like using those because they are not simply a "bolt together" unit.

It's the opinion of the same regulars on this forum that they are little to zero value to the dollar. Brand name successful companies such as Canton, Trick Flow, Blue Thunder and such stand behind their girdles, the time & research put into them. Those companies opinion carry just as much weight as any poster on here or any other forum for that matter. And as for horsepower, supercharged I could sneeze and make 900 horsepower, my old motor made 1008 at the flywheel which is more than many on here. Not the most by far and away, but respectable. I expect that in a few weeks the new engine in my truck will make more at a lower rpm. My goal has always been longevity in my engines, through sturdy construction, and good tuning using time proven components that were part of previous successful engines. In my own experience , mine not yours, main girdles have helped whether I was running 351w's, FE's, or 385 series. Every engine builder has his own personal recipe for their builds, and this is mine. On this subject the best thing is just to agree to disagree and leave it at that. There will always be others with better motors, or higher horsepower, bigger budgets, that's a given.

Its always better to do more with less.........."crutched" or whatever you wanna call it.

edit post, my mistake. 

Larry Williams wrote:I now have a nice shinny paperweight for my desk.   A little big but i have to use it for something

If you want to sell it I might be interested. Let me know.

Bret

I'm in agreement with most here. The only way a girdle does any good is if it's doweled - then it's held in place. Otherwise, it just scoots around. The main studs are insufficient clamp pressure to keep things from moving. Dowels are the only way. By the time you've machined one this way, you'd have a lot of money tied up, and the bulkhead of the block would still be insufficient to handle stout power. If you're making more than 750hp, your mains will thank you for investing in an A460 block.

JMO,
Mike K - Ford Powertrain Engineering.

mkopmani wrote:If you're making more than 750hp, your mains will thank you for investing in an A460 block.

JMO,
Mike K - Ford Powertrain Engineering.

We have customers who are generating double that power level without an A460 block and their mains "thank" them with every pass.  This is not to say that an A460 block isn't the better choice in such an application, I'm saying that 750 hp ain't jack for a 2-bolt 460 block in just about every engine combo.

Paul

Paul Kane wrote:

mkopmani wrote:If you're making more than 750hp, your mains will thank you for investing in an A460 block.

JMO,
Mike K - Ford Powertrain Engineering.

We have customers who are generating double that power level without an A460 block and their mains "thank" them with every pass.  This is not to say that an A460 block isn't the better choice in such an application, I'm saying that 750 hp ain't jack for a 2-bolt 460 block in just about every engine combo.

Paul

That all depends on how hard you spin it, bob weight & tune.

Bret Powell wrote:

Paul Kane wrote:

mkopmani wrote:If you're making more than 750hp, your mains will thank you for investing in an A460 block.

JMO,
Mike K - Ford Powertrain Engineering.

We have customers who are generating double that power level without an A460 block and their mains "thank" them with every pass.  This is not to say that an A460 block isn't the better choice in such an application, I'm saying that 750 hp ain't jack for a 2-bolt 460 block in just about every engine combo.

Paul

That all depends on how hard you spin it, bob weight & tune.

 
Agreed....there should always be some context of how a given part is used relative to much any part will stand before it fails.
 
I'd never seen a two piece Scat forged crankshaft before this summer. The context is.....not many people turn 8,200 rpm every pass like Ronnie Smith does in his Curtis 501 hyroplane dragboat.