Price of Horse Power

For the average 385 Series enthusiast, trying to build a 600 hp pump gas engine for a mere $3000 would likely result in a combo comprised of mostly used, reconditioned parts and a lot of long-term research and ingenuity. It would take a very long time to scrounge and haggle for the deals necessary in oder to stay within budget, and due to the budget it would be a combo built primarily for reaching that 600 hp number and not necessarily the most usable power, and the chances of duplicating this (thus far non-existing and theoretical) $3000 build anytime soon would be slim to none.

I'll elaborate on the two different versions of 600 hp pump gas engines ($3000 & $9000) as I see it and why I feel the $9000 600 hp pump gas combo will stomp the shit of the $3000 600 hp pump gas combo. Before I do, let me just establish among all of us that nit-picking the pricing is not what this thread is about....afterall, budget build prices are always all over the place. For example, a good rebuildable 460 core is realistically worth $500 or more given the cost of starting with a bare block by comparison (bolts, washers, timing cover, pan, all add up quick, etc), and yet there will always be someone that got a complete engine for $50, not $500. Nevertheless, I'll be conservative in my pricing, even fair market for the current state of the economy, and if I am off a few hundred dollars one way or the other just don't whine about it since the point is not lost as there is still an approximately $6000 difference between the two combos. Some parts are pre-existing from the engine and some performance parts will need to be purchased for the buildup.

For starters, no engine builder in his right mind would accept such a proposal for a $3000 600hp pump gas build, and so this combo is with the aspiring enthusiast in mind and doing what he can himself and having machining done for him whenever necessary:

$3000 600 hp Pump Gas Combo, starting with a STD bore block. 460 cast crankshaft, Block, purchase USED 0.030" over forged 22cc dish top pistons hung on rods ($150), Balance the complete rotating assy ($150) purchase USED well ported large valve D0VE heads + have them refurbished valve job and resurface ($950), New solid lifter cam/lifter/spring/retainer/tming chain kit ($475), USED rockers and hardened pushrods ($250), Recurved Dusraspark Distributor ($150), USED Tunnel Ram and two 750 carburetors ($500), USED valve covers ($85), Clean block, mag block, bore block 0.030" ($350), full gasket set ($100), etc, etc, etc, I haven't touched on a LOT of parts (no piston rings, no bearings, no oil pump, etc) and the enthusiast is already over $3000. And the engine will be a "refurbished" 600 hp pump gas engine that is made of a lot of used parts.

Now below, the same enthusiast comes to me and tells me he wants 600 hp on pump gas and he has $9000 to spend (for comparitive demonstration only, not an advertsiment for an engine combo I would necessarily execute):

$9000 600 hp Pump Gas Combo, starting with a 0.060" overbore 2-bolt block. Block, purchase NEW SCAT 533 rotating assy, pre-balanced with rings and bearings ($1750) purchase NEW FRPP SCJ aluminum cylinder heads ($1700), NEW solid roller XR280R Roller cam and lifter Kit ($700) NEW FRPP Billet gear chain kit ($75), NEW brand name roller rockers and NEW hardened pushrods ($550), Recurved Dusraspark Distributor ($150), NEW Victor 4500 + NEW QFT Holley 1150 cfm ($1500), NEW valve covers ($135), thermoclean block, mag check block, Stage 1 oiling mods, align hone block, bore block 0.030", deck block ($850), full gasket set ($100), that's most if it and we are at $7600 +/-.... I'll leave room for particulars that might be needed.

Now, which 600 hp pump gas engine as described above do you think is going to kick the ass of the other, the broad powered 600 hp pump gas $9000 aluminum-headed 533 or the peaky 600 hp pump gas refurbished $3000 466? (And don't pick apart the 533 combo as saying, "that cam will allow more than 600 hp." That's not the point, substitute whatever cam you think that manages the 600 hp, just stay focused on the point.)

To really even things out, we'll do a FULL real-world analysis. Take both engines and put them in the same vehicles with no changes whatsoever. For example, find a guy with a 385 Series based door slammer, remove his engine and replace it with the $3000 engine, then replace it the $9000 engine. Both engines run the same chassis and same chassis setup, only the engines are swapped. Which engine is going to kick the ass of the other?

Which is ging to kick the ass of the other in the 1/8 mile asphalt?

Which is ging to kick the ass of the other in the 1/4 mile asphalt?

In a door slammer?

In a rail?

How about liquid quarter mile?

In v-drive?

In a jet boat?

In a pickle-fork hydro?

In a mud bog?

In a sled pull?

At Pikes Peak?

In the Baja 1000?

In the East African Safari Rallye?

How about from one red light to the next in your Mom's 1974 LTD wagon?

Test both engines under all the above noted circumstances and I say that the $9000 600 hp pump gas engine will shine--and shine strongly--over the "rebuilder" 600 hp pump gas engine that costs 1/3 as much.

Paul

Paul, I believe that to have YOU or some of the other more famous engine builders here on this site will build a better 460 based engine for the money.

I also feel that many home builders take much more time and care in assembling an engine than some "prefessional" builders. I have seen engine builders assembling next to a bench with grinders and all sorts of crap floating in the air and getting into the customer's nice new engine. Putting parts on backwards etc. I am not convinced that using the same parts, a professionally built engine always makes more power than a home build. Some professionals yes.

I think a person needs to pick their builder very carefully. Builder A's engine will kick the shit out of Builder B's engine also. Same parts, same cost.

Just my .02

Bill

billandlori wrote:Paul, I believe that to have YOU or some of the other more famous engine builders here on this site will build a better 460 based engine for the money.

I also feel that many home builders take much more time and care in assembling an engine. I have seen engine builders assembling next to a bench with grinders and all sorts of crap floating in the air and getting into the customer's nice new engine. Putting parts on backwards etc. I am not convinced that using the same parts, a professionally built engine always makes more power than a home build. Some professionals yes.

I think a person needs to pick their builder very carefully. Builder A's engine will kick the shit out of Builder B's engine also. Same parts, same cost.

Just my .02

Bill

Bill, That's exactly why I build my own.

Building an engine is like California to me, I have never been there.

How difficult is it to assembly prepared components the right way

I'm not being "Cute" I don't , know see above statement.

Nice post Paul..... And by the way if your 533 only makes 600hp you've failed, now how much to assemble it and all the new small parts, what's the out the door price? What's the REAL Total you'd charge.

Your part selection on the Cheap motor was pretty lame.......

and which one still has $6000 in their pocket to afford gas to get to the bracket races and can still afford to eat at the track............

its never going to be a fair compairison, because if your looking for a fair fight in racing, you've already lost.

dfree383 wrote:Nice post Paul..... And by the way if your 533 only makes 600hp you've failed, now how much to assemble it and all the new small parts, what's the out the door price? What's the REAL Total you'd charge.

Your part selection on the Cheap motor was pretty lame.......

and which one still has $6000 in their pocket to afford gas to get to the bracket races and can still afford to eat at the track............

its never going to be a fair compairison, because if your looking for a fair fight in racing, you've already lost.

LOL. I find it funny when someone has proven their point, you still want to somehow prove you're right.

dfree383 wrote:Again you have nothing usefull to contribute...... and only wish to stir sh*t and not add anything usefull to this conversation.

Errr, and you have?

Riding on the coat-tails of others does not make you good.

Dave

dj, a quick question? at what point in open spring pressure do roller cam bearing become the obvious choice?

138 wrote:dj, a quick question? at what point in open spring pressure do roller cam bearing become the obvious choice?

http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102498

Hope that helps,

Dave

thanks...

I believe a $3000 600hp motor is a bit on the far fetched side of things here. Personally I have about $500 into my 460 build, this got me my "4500" victor intake, d0ve head cores, 460 short block builder (still need a timing cover :-/), and my mallory ignition system (unilite dizzy and coil). I expect to be about $4000 into my motor once it's together, but we'll see once it's all said and done.