coming to a crossroad...

I know its all been covered, but it looks like the board needs some life...so I said screw it, spill it, and see what they say...so here goes.

alright let me start with the situation....
I have been buying all the high quality parts that are going to be needed in building a serious engine, and I'm starting to creep up on the heads, and rotating assembly. I originally was going to build a factory block based pump gas street engine for around 500hp, while also assembling an A-460 block based n/a high comp A-headed race engine for around 900hp or more if the setup runs good...

heres where it gets complicated for me, should I just build ONE engine?
There is basicly only bracket racing around here, Having a 1000 hp alchohol injected 10.5 tire car is really unnsesary, and impractical to run the dial consistantly to have any chance at winning and having fun in that regard. So I have this idea of building an engine set-up for n2o making around the 500hp n/a that I originally was wanting in the street engine on pump gas to run the brackets, and getting the other 500hp from hitting it with a 2 stage plate to deal with people like bruno or some other type of hero if I ever see them...

My thinking is to run the brackets n/a with the 500hp.. and hit it with gas when I wanna turn it up to the 1000hp mark, and seeing as the engine would be built for the gas really shouldn't be that much... BUT like I said I'm creeping up on the heads, and assembly, and obviuosly the rods and crank are a no brainer but the heads are another story...

A-heads or just SCJ?
I'm thinking the A-heads would help for the pump gas n/a side of the deal, and would also benefit with the increased exhaust flow with the n2o... but even though the engine would be setup for the n2o (cam, carb, pistons etc..) are the A-heads even necessary?

When running n/a in the brackets is the converter going to be an issue being set-up for juice?
How shitty is the car gonna run n/a?

Basically if I build a nitrous motor too make 1000+ on spray with a n2o cam without crazy cylinder pressures what will it make on motor with either heads?

What about the converter? If its setup for n2o will I have issues running it n/a for the brackets?




What are some thoughts, other than I'm a dumbass, and should just stick to the original plan, and build a SCJ/TFS Street pump gas street/bracket car, and build the other A-headed high comp alcohol engine for the smack down...

It would be really nice to have only one car/engine setup, and I could get it done faster and save a whole lot of cash. Plus it would be funny to lay it on bruno in a street car...

Well all things considered it sounds like you want the best of both worlds without giving anything on either side. If you build for n2o then thats where you should focus as the car will be slow without it, and if you build for n/a then you'll have serious problems when you give it the juice. If you've got the A block then go ahead and build for a bawls out n/a motor, and then when you feel the need you can tear it down and rebuild for the juice. These are just my opinions and should be taken with a grain of salt.

if I build it for juice, I'm thinking it will be fine for the 5-600 n/a I'm looking for in the brackets. I really dont need 900hp n/a every time it goes out, and to spend 30,000 on two motors is almost not worth it.

4.5 stroke-572 A's or SCJ's

maybe it wont make 550 on motor with a nitrous cam, and carb with 10.5-1 comp.Plus with a tight ass converter for the juice, it might run like a sloth... these are the things this newb does not know...

To get a 5-600 hp NA to close to 900-1000hp is going to be tough.

Spend 12-15 G on a 780-830hp NA and then hit it with the NOS for the 900-1000hp you may need once in a while and dial it in on the lower hp. Going to be hard to have it all in one package.

JMO Mark

I'm considering running a 10.5 heads up class with a 1000 or so hp alky injected n/a bracket motor.........


Might even drag the 83 out from behind the shop and make a chassis swap............hmmmmm

see my thinking is if I'm gonna sacrifice anything either way it would be n/a. because with the bracket racing it runs what it runs... and with the juice I wanna build the engine for that side of the game so I only gotta hit it with as little as it takes to get to the 1000 mark.

richter69 wrote:I'm considering running a 10.5 heads up class with a 1000 or so hp alky injected n/a bracket motor.........


Might even drag the 83 out from behind the shop and make a chassis swap............hmmmmm

but hows that 1000 gonna work out for me in the brackets on a 10.5 slick?... and some mini van whips my ass on a 18.750 sec. dial.

800hp n/a deal is easy to build..hell look at Nick, then slap a bit of juice on top.

It would be harder to make a n/a deal 500hp with the good heads/parts etc.......even tuned for spray.

Converter would be tight n/a but again its just shoe polish so what lol.

richter69 wrote:800hp n/a deal is easy to build..hell look at Nick, then slap a bit of juice on top.

It would be harder to make a n/a deal 500hp with the good heads/parts etc.......even tuned for spray.

Converter would be tight n/a but again its just shoe polish so what lol.

so a pump gas A headed engine built for 1000hp goal on juice is gonna be pressed to make 550 on motor, and the converter is gonna be wacked out, essentially giving me an inconsistent turd for a bracket car?...thats really the bottom line here.

138 wrote:4.5 stroke-572 A's or SCJ's

maybe it wont make 550 on motor with a nitrous cam, and carb with 10.5-1 comp.Plus with a tight ass converter for the juice, it might run like a sloth... these are the things this newb does not know...

I don't see the issue......TorinoGt's 572 with unported P51s 10.6/1, 1050 carb, fuel from the BP station and a cam small enough to drive on the street made 749 hp @ 6,100 rpm.
A460 heads, more cam and a 1250 carb should be good for about another 100 hp.

thats what I was thinking... a pump gas 572, 2.350 int A-headed, .750 solid roller n2o cammed, 1250 dominator would laugh at 5-600 hp on motor, and I could run it like that for brackets, and get it all jacked up on dope for heros... but the HeRo is trying to discourage me...

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Let me first start by saying a big thanks to everyone that helped! Lem and Phillip definately found some hidden power in the tune. I can honestly say that the ability to just know what will make an engine happy is very impressive. To say that I am happy with the results is a big understatement, I did not expect near what was produced.

The build:
557 cubic inch
4.440" bore Venolia flat tops 11:1 comp ratio
6.700" Scat rods
4.500" Scat forged crank
TFS 2.300" small valve A460 Heads bone stock
Old style TFS/FMS unported intake
Mild custom Comp roller by Lem Evans at B.F.Evans Race Parts

A racer could literaly order pretty much any part of this build off the shelf and put it together... Nothing exotic here. A true testimate to what can be done with the great parts we have available....

The Results:

With a standard Holley 1150 provided by Lem Evans on a mixture of 80% 93 octane pump gas and 20% 110...

826.4 hp @ 6300 rpm
755.3 ft. lbs @ 4800 rpm

With a Quick Fuel 1250 provided by Phillip Oakley on a mixture of 80% 93 octane pump gas and 20% 110...

830.5 hp @ 6300 rpm
760.8 ft. lbs. @ 4800 rpm

With the same Quick Fuel provided by Phillip Oakley on 110 Munster Fuel...

838 hp @ 6300 rpm
775.7 ft. lbs. @ 4800 rpm

We are going to do a little more testing tomorrow, we think there is a little more left to find... Again, thanks to everyone that helped... I had a great time and learned a lot! Thanks!!!
__________________
Seth Hembree



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Thanks for the kind words guys! I am still down here, plan to leave Monday morning but I don't want to...

We did use an inch spacer on the results posted above...
We tried a new style TFS intake today and played around a little. Ended up losing 5 or 6 ft lbs but made 854 hp. I am very happy with the results! It's great to try things and see results. Talk about a fun learning experience! Thanks again to Lem, Phillip, Mike and everyone else involved!!!
__________________
Seth Hembree
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This engine was done 3 years ago........the cam had a 264* @.050", .715" lift intake lobe.

I remember that...

richter69 wrote:800hp n/a deal is easy to build..hell look at Nick, then slap a bit of juice on top.

It would be harder to make a n/a deal 500hp with the good heads/parts etc.......even tuned for spray.

Converter would be tight n/a but again its just shoe polish so what lol.

I think I misunderstood what you were saying before...
now I think what you meant was is it would be hard to get it to ONLY make 500hp on motor, and that it would make more than that with good heads even if it was built and tuned for spray...

138 wrote:

richter69 wrote:800hp n/a deal is easy to build..hell look at Nick, then slap a bit of juice on top.

It would be harder to make a n/a deal 500hp with the good heads/parts etc.......even tuned for spray.

Converter would be tight n/a but again its just shoe polish so what lol.

I think I misunderstood what you were saying before...
now I think what you meant was is it would be hard to get it to ONLY make 500hp on motor, and that it would make more than that with good heads even if it was built and tuned for spray...

that's what I meant.

Have you looked at a turbo set up? You can "adjust" your power with the boost limit. Cam is nice and mild, power is only there when you need it for street driving. 1,000hp sounds pretty easy on some of the turbo builds....

Just a thought!!

Bill

I'd say, go with the A block and A heads in the cubic inch of your choice. Have the cam and converter spec'd out for the smack.
Since you plan on running a small tire, I believe the fact that the converter being too tight off the spray will be good for the bracket classes. It may leave like a pig but, it will have good mph for the ET and will be consistant.
Just some food for thought.
Jeff

First thing to consider would be a ring package that would live on that much spray and how running that much extra clearance on end gap would work bracket racing, might be a time for gapless rings. Yes converter would seem like a step from stock to hold that much HP/torque so it one way it would make a great bracket car, wont spin= tight a$$ converter and running 10 mile hr faster then other people at the same speed. They will lift and then it will be too late

I think I would just build the A headed deal to make around 800hp and bracket race it that way. You can always run a throttle stop to run what ever number you want. A 200 shot will net you well over the 1000 hp mark with that motor.

That way if you ever want to turn up the wick with a bigger cam and more juice you have the motor for it already.

A guy would have to work hard to make a big A460 headed engine make only 800 hp.....even on pump gas.
Like has been said.......if a guy wants a dog engine.........just put too much convertor behind it.

As most have mentioned, time and time again, something will be sacrificed relative to performance and reliability. A 500 horsepower increase in a naturally aspirated engine that has a power level of 500 horsepower will almost require a strong foundation and an induction system to accommodate that 1000 horsepower goal. As Lem mentioned, a converter that will allow the 500 horsepower version to function at it's best, will be "blown through" when an additional 500 horsepower is added! And visa versa, a converter that will contain the 1000 horsepower performance will indeed make the 500 horsepower version a turd!

Why not build a good performance engine as others on the site have and de-tune it if a lesser horsepower application is needed?

Another idea! What about a delayed throttle opening! Have that big trap speed that seems to work so well in bracket racing.

Just my line of B.S.!
Dave.

I really appreciate the information... thank you

Just out of curiosity...

My engine, and trans (tconverter) combo AS IS... (and assuming the chassis could handle/utilize the power) How would my combo act if I added 150 or 250 shot of N20? getting to that 1000 horse goal that "138" was looking to achieve...

everyone talks about a car being built for nitrous... but what would happen if you add nitrous to my engine thats not built around nitrous? Im confident the rotating assembly and block etc can handle the horsepower... but with the street-ish torque converter, and n/a cam profile... would it just not be as much of a gain as a car built for N20... or what!?

Shane