OKAY, WHAT AM I DOING WRONG ??

I recently chewed up the ring gear and starter bendix on my 545. I ordered a new ring gear from Mcleod which is 176 teeth, and I ordered a new 92 / 93 F350 starter from NAPA because I heard they were the "ticket" for strong cranking power. The first starter was defective, as it had no support bushing in the starter nose, the second starter strains way too much, and makes all kinds of terrible noises! I took it back out, and noticed a lot of metal filings, and I know that ain't good! What I'm wondering about is the tooth count on the bendix, all the different Ford starters I have around the shop, and the Tilton that was in the car are all nine teeth, and this new NAPA starter is ten teeth! Is there another bendix that will fit this starter that has nine teeth? I recall a similar topic a while back, but couldn't find it. Anybody shed some light on what I'm doing wrong??

Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

There are two different versions of the gear reduction starter, one for manual trans and one for the auto. Make sure you have the correct one. I made this mistake and have a manual version laying around that I will probably never use, and can't return because it is used. I have been using a standard early starter for the last two years and have had no trouble with it.

Schmitty, if it's not too much trouble for you, could you give me the tooth count on the bendix? Also, they call it a gear reduction starter, but it doesn't have any kind of offset to the housing, and appears to be a "straight through" design. Do you have a pic of the starter? Thanks

Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

The gear reduction starters using planetary gearsets are straight with no offset.

Which starter do you need the tooth count on? The gear reduction or the stock style?

I don'tknow if there is a difference, but the starters I buy are for a f-250 automatic.

wayne,are you haveing any clearance issues between the starter and the oil pan rail? when you put the starter in place will both of the bolts line up with out any issues?

i have this issue with both of the motors that i have built useing 2 different oil pans.the first oil pan was a moroso i bent the pan rail over enough to clear the starter.next was the charlies pan i had to use a die grinder and go flush with the side of the block.i then put the starter in place and was able to use a screw driver to move the gear out to were it engaged the flywheel.the starter gear should engage the flywheel fairly easy.

How long did your previous starter and ring gear last? it sounds like you could have an alignment issue. you might have to do something to get the starter and ring gear closer together so the starter gear teeth fully engage the ring gear.

Thanks guy's for all the replies, I really appreciate it! Randy, thanks for the info about the starter being gear reduced by a planetary, I thought they may have given me the wrong starter.

Schmitty, I wanted to know what the tooth count was on the gear reduction starter you have. Mine is ten teeth and the bendix is a larger diameter than any of the other starters I have.

342G, the starter was ordered for a standard shift application. I called NAPA to verify that they gave me the correct starter, they insist that it's the correct one, (NAPA part number 4N-9261).

Larry T, There's no interference around the starter, the mounting flange is wider than the body of the starter motor, and bolts up solid to the plate and bell housing.

Mitch, the original starter was a Tilton Super Starter that I've been using since I bought it new in 1999. It was originally on my 460 crate motor, with a stock Ford iron truck flywheel, and a Lakewood housing. It was then used on my 545 motor with the Mcleod steel flywheel, and the same Lakewood housing. It worked well enough for about two years, until it started skipping and grinding recently.

At this point, I'm thinking about getting the neccessary parts to put the Tilton back in shape. I liked the idea of using the Ford truck gear reduction starter because I've read so much about them being up to the task of cranking high compression motors easily, being readily available, and far cheaper than the high dollar after market starters. The tooth count, and larger diameter of the bendix has me puzzled - is there a nine tooth bendix available for this starter? Thanks again for all your help - you guys are the best!

Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

can u index the pinion to the bolt holes on both starter to make sure there the same
dragweek quickest street rod
2009 2010

Quick: I not certain that I understand your question, but the Tilton starter is indexable in that I can rotate the starter body around for clearance issues such as headers, etc - but that won't chance the bendix location to the flywheel. The bendix on the Tilton is centered on the mounting face, but the Ford gear reduction starter bendix is noticeably offset in the mounting face.

Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

you probably need to get the starter for an automatic transmission truck. Also some lakewood bell housings are known to have alignment problems, I know some guys have had to slot the bottom starter hole to get the starter close enough to the ring gear.

The new style starters and a lakewood bellhousing don't work good together. Something about the lakewood rolls the starter away from the flywheel more than a stock bellhousing. The old style starters work perfect with a lakewood and are strong enough to start your motor unless youv'e got insain compression. The old style has a 9 tooth drive also. hope this helps.

Dennis

I appreciate all the input from you guys about my starter/flywheel problems. At this point, NAPA is refusing to take back the starter they sold me (probably have to find an empty spot on the shelf for it). It seems that my quickest solution is to replace the pinion gear on my Tilton starter ($35.00, should be here today). I jammed a shim into the bendix on the NAPA starter to hold it in the extended position, used some flat washers to simulate the thickness of the lower midplate, bolted the starter in, and observed as best I could the bendix engagement to the flywheel. It appears to mesh, but much too tight to be any good. All the Ford starters, and the Tilton that I have are 9 teeth, and are a smaller diameter than the NAPA starter with 10 teeth (?????). Meanwhile, I've been doing some online snooping, and came across a website for "Mean Green starters, and alternators", anybody ever heard of them, any good? They offer a high torque, gear reduction starter specifically for big block Fords with 176 tooth flywheels (so they claim), their bendix has 11 teeth. They ain't cheap at $299.00, but way cheaper than Tilton. Any body got any feed back on "Mean Green"? Thanks again for all your input.

Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

Wayne Pearce wrote:Quick: I not certain that I understand your question, but the Tilton starter is indexable in that I can rotate the starter body around for clearance issues such as headers, etc - but that won't chance the bendix location to the flywheel. The bendix on the Tilton is centered on the mounting face, but the Ford gear reduction starter bendix is noticeably offset in the mounting face.


Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

measure from the mounting flsnge holes to the pinion center line to see if the pinion is located in the location on both starters. the starter pinion center could be diff
dragweek quickest street rod
2009 2010

quick 52 wrote:

Wayne Pearce wrote:Quick: I not certain that I understand your question, but the Tilton starter is indexable in that I can rotate the starter body around for clearance issues such as headers, etc - but that won't chance the bendix location to the flywheel. The bendix on the Tilton is centered on the mounting face, but the Ford gear reduction starter bendix is noticeably offset in the mounting face.


Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

measure from the mounting flsnge holes to the pinion center line to see if the pinion is located in the location on both starters. the starter pinion center could be diff
dragweek quickest street rod
2009 2010

ebay the chopper shop jegs hi torq $129 i using one works great

Well, my Tilton replacement starter pinion gear arrived, I put the starter back together, and put it back in the car. Starts the engine up just fine, cranks quickly, and quietly. Still can't figure out why it all went to hell in the first place, but I'm good to go for the time being. Would still like input about "Mean Green" starters, if anybody's had any experience with them. Thanks again for all the help!

Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

Wayne,
I did not see what bellhousing you are running. The Lakewoods that I have ran and have looked at are all for the 184 tooth flywheel. Now most of the Quicktime Bells are all for the 176 tooth count flywheels. If you are running the lakewood and a 176 wheel together then that may be some of the problem. Like someone else said above me you may need to slot the lower hole in the bell and what they did not mention too, is that you will probably have to open up the safety plate starter guide hole, ( large hole the starter slides through ) to get proper alignment. Just a thought. I'd keep an eye on the tilton so it does not tear it up too.

Travis

Wayne,
Here is a link to a new 15220 Lakewood Bell. scroll down a little bit and all the specs are listed there. definatley for a 184 tooth only.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lakewood-Safety-Bellhousing-15220-/330537219943?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4cf58db767


Travis

Hey, Travis:
Thanks for the input, I was aware of Lakewoods disclaimer from years ago, but honestly I had forgotten it. I had this Lakewood housing on the back of my 460 crate motor from day one (2002) with the Ford truck flywheel #D9TE-6380-BB) which is 179 teeth, which has worked fine for all those years. I figured that "if it ain't broke don't fix it", until it went to hell on me a few weeks ago. I just put it back together yesterday, and it cranks as strong, and quietly as it did when it was new. I suspect that there's a nine tooth bendix gear out there somewhere that will fit this gear reduction Ford starter, and if and when I find it - I will take another shot at it. I'm aware that these lakewood housings have a reputation for dimensional variations, the one that concerned me the most was the issue of concentricity causing misalignments between the centerline of the crank to the input shaft of the transmission. I guess I lucked out on that because when I checked it with an indicator, I was less than .002 out. I don't know, but I'm not going looking for trouble (LOL), most of the time it finds me! I was close to buying a Quicktime housing until I found out they are not SFI certified.

Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

I really think there is something there with the 184 tooth and the 176 tooth in that bell. I have a feeling that the starter is a tad to far away from the flywheel with the 176 tooth. Then add the 10 tooth starter into the deal and you have a double issue with the meshing and cog count, making the shavings you are seeing. I am thinking you have lucked out with your combo for the past few years, maybe even why the tilton went bad the first time. Just a thought.

Travis