The Great Cylinder Head Debate...........

Seeing that my dog is "Dyno Dog", I feel this belongs on a site that isn't a Corporation.......

Okay guys, here's the deal, Charile and I have and flow three different sets of cylinder heads that Dyno Dog owns and CHarlie has fondled and rubbed. They are a set of Kaase P-51 heads, a set of Kaase Boss Hemi heads, and a set of TFS A-460 heads (the new style). That's three different styles or families of heads.

Here are the flow numbers, and realize that all heads were flowed on the same SuperFlow 600 bench with the FlowCom computer. Also all heads were flowed on the same 4.625" cylinder bore and these numbers are the average of all the ports. The exhaust were flowed WITHOUT a test pipe.

1. Kaase P-51
Intakes, .100=67, .200=147.6, .300=241, .400=326.3, .500=387.3, .600=419, .700=421.5, .800=417.5 cfm, for a total of 2427.2 cfm.

Exhaust, .100=52, .200=105.9, .300=150.3, .400=192, .500=228.4, .600=251.7, .700=262.6, .800=266.1 cfm, for a total of 1509.0 cfm.

2. Kaase Boss Hemi
Intakes, .100=75, .200=157.3, .300=242.8, .400=323.3, .500=383, .600=419.5, .700=430, .800=432 cfm, for a total of 2432.9 cfm.

Exhaust, .100=52.5, .200=123.3, .300=168.5, .400=223, .500=261, .600=290, .700=308.5, .800=314.5 cfm, for a total of 1741.3 cfm.

3. TFS A-460 new style
Intakes, .100=73.5, .200=160.3, .300=244.6, .400=315, .500=374.3, .600=407.8, .700=439.1, .800=465 cfm, for a total of 2479.6 cfm.

Exhaust, .100=57.5, .200=118.4, .300=166.1, .400=202, .500=239, .600=274.1, .700=301.1, .800=318.1 cfm, for a total of 1676.3 cfm.

Now then the big question is, what kind of power differences would we see in each of the three totally different sets of heads,,,,,,if all three were dynoed on a 572 CID engine and the compression ratio and all other factors were identical??? Food for thought???

Thanks From Dyno Dog......

Also Nick please feel free to start a head flow thread and use the flows From my heads as the starters.

Plus we need to get a head higher archy post in the same thread for the newbies.

anyupdates

Yep

P-51's made about 750 peak hp on 466" @ 6700 tr w/2x4 11.5:1

Boss 9's made abot 740 peak up on 432" @ 6900 tr w/2x4 11.5:1

A460's made 905 hp on 528" @ 7100 rpm single 4 12:1


P-51 = 1.60 hp per CID

Boss 9 = 1.71 hp per CID

A460 = 1.71 hp per CID

p-51 and Boss pull where best observed peak numbers and not necessarily best average pulled for the emc competition.

How close where the cams to each other? What kind of lift are we talking? I would have figured that the boss heads would have made more.

The first two motors where on 91 octane pump gas the a460 motor was on race fuel.

Cams.... From memory may not be 100%

p-51 254/258 840/840 on a 106

Boss 266/264 680/660 on a 104

a460 280/290 814/821 on a 112

==

TravisRice wrote:Juding by the results of said be engines before. And the camshaft differences compared to the Boss9 deal. I think the Boss 9's would fare a close second to the A-460's. Got a camshaft in mind for the build ?? More in line of the smallish Boss one or on the large side of .800 + lift ?????????

Travis

The 572 build was thought about a long time ago and has never come to reality because of cost and time. The specs given are from 2 EMC motors and my 528" motor in my car (that's what the a460 heads mentioned are on). But all three sets of heads mentioned are and have been used, just not on a side by side motor compairison.

What would the HP differance be if these heads were used on the same bottom end ie same cubes and same spec cam? Would the figures be similar to what has been already posted?

boss56 wrote:What would the HP differance be if these heads were used on the same bottom end ie same cubes and same spec cam? Would the figures be similar to what has been already posted?

Am I missing something or was that not the question asked in post number 1 ??

G-

You guys gotta remember that the specs of the camshafts in the EMC motors were based upon AVERAGE torque & horsepower where power at 3,000 RPM had just as much importance as power at 6,500 RPM.
If PEAK torque and horsepower were the goal then those camshafts would certainly have been a whole LOT different.

boss56 wrote:What would the HP differance be if these heads were used on the same bottom end ie same cubes and same spec cam? Would the figures be similar to what has been already posted?

what would using the same camshaft prove? It would be stupid to buy thousands of dollars worth the cylinder heads and handicap them with cams that aren't matched to the heads strong points... Total waste IMO

dfree383 wrote:Now then the big question is, what kind of power differences would we see in each of the three totally different sets of heads,,,,,,if all three were dynoed on a 572 CID engine and the compression ratio and all other factors were identical??? Food for thought???

Thanks From Dyno Dog......

I'd give it to the Boss heads, then A-heads and the P-51's last.

From past experience my A-heads made around 2.15 hp per cfm single 1,050. After the rebuild I'm going through I'm expecting about 2.20 from 445 cfm single 1,200 carb.

Eventhough the A- heads above outflow the Boss heads by 30 cfm's ( that would be worth 66 hp @ 2.20 hp/cfm) I'll give the Boss heads an efficiency advantage and give them a slight advantage. Assuming a stought 572" with an .800" lift cam with 280-290'ish dur @ .050 and 12.5 - 13:1 compression I'd give the A- heads 1,000 -1020 hp and the Boss head equal or a tad more ( 20 hp) with less airflow. But that will be in the cam. I'd order mine from my friend Danny Crower. Are Cam swaps okay from head to head ?


G-

I'd have to agree, I think the A460's and the Hemi heads would be real close.

One thing for sure....the "A" and the boss will not like the same cam.

I must admit that i'm a bigger is better kinda guy (yes my wife has 34-DD's LOL) but i have been really impressed with some of the P-51 headed motor builds i've been seeing lately and on my next mild build thats probably what i would use, rubbed on by Charlie and toped off with a Lem cam of course.

ok then i have a ? ,i have a offer to buy a set of a429 that have been worked alot, what would i expect out of them if there right will they , be close or should i lookinto something else , i need to rephrase that i have a 472 ,12 to 1 comp ,i was told 274 dur. at 50 with a lift of 645,flat tappet ,victor intake ,i need 650hp

Filucky wrote:I must admit that i'm a bigger is better kinda guy (yes my wife has 34-DD's LOL)

we need proof

let us judge for ya


Randy

ill help judge .......and to guys who started this sorry to hijack topic ,im just trying to fish and see if it will work...

i'm gona go with the A heads,hemi,p51.and i'd like to judge that other subject too!

And she loves BBF's almost as much as me.

We just gotta have this cylinder head debate at least a couple times a year, lol.

yep,thats a nice set you got.looks like they flow very well with the rest of the package.got the rite gear out back too.

filucky , try islucky is more like it . Randy M. only once a year ?

JUST WOWWWWWWWWWW