275 d/r class build ...any suggestions

here are the rules ...... what is the best bbf combo for this class

I am building a 275 Mustang to run local here in MD, and VA and would like to know what combo you think would work best...Here are the rules for the class...

Suspension Rules
1. Any stock type suspension or ladder bar, stock rear frame rail , stock front frame rail including:
A. Coil overs
B. After market K members
C. After market front sub frame
D. Anti-roll

Weights by combo
2. SB Multiple Systems w/NOS-Blower-Turbo -NA -3100 lb base weight

NOS SB
A. Stock Valve angle 20-23 degree deduct 100 lbs (NOS Combos only, no weight reduction with more than 2 systems)
B. Canted valve limited to 2 systems
C. Single nitrous system deduct 100 lbs.(any other system must be capped off)


BLOWER SB
A. YSi / F1A or = at base weight of 3100 lbs
B. F1C or = add 100 lbs
C. F1R, Xi or = add 200 lbs

TURBO SB
A. 76 mm T6 at base weight of 3100 lbs
B. 80 mm T6 add 100 lbs
C. 85 mm T6 add 200 lbs
D. 88mm T6 add 250 lbs w/85 reducer

N/A SB
A. Deduct 400 lbs

3. Big Block Combos (limited to N/A and NOS only)

NOS BB
A. Standard Deck HT BB Conventional Head Single System NOS 3250 lbs
B. Tall Deck HT BB Conventional Head Single System NOS 3400 lbs (limited to 10.2)

N/A BB
A. Standard Deck HT Conventional Head 3000
B. Tall Deck HT Conventional Head 3100 (limited to 10.2)
C. Standard Deck HT Big Chief 3250

4. General Rules

A. 275 max tire size as printed on sidewall, radial tire
B. Deduct 50 lbs for 275 BFG Drag Radial
C. 28 X 10.5 non W slick allowed on N/A combos
D. All weights are with driver
E. Mufflers on all combo except turbo
F. No wheelie bars
G. Tech reserves the right to accept of reject any car or driver
H. Courtesy Staging is in effect
I. BB limited to 588 cu in (will be subject to P&G)
J. Add 50 lbs for ladder bar

They allow stock deck height BBF cause I already asked but limit is 588 on one stage. Thinking of going with a Steve Johnson fogger, but need to know what C.I. to go with, heads, rods, ect...All 1/8th mile stuff also.

Gonna be hell to hook that torque on that tire, around here the smallblock/prochaged deals rule..............and its not for lack of money.


I watched mike Duffy make license runs in marty chances car and it was waaaaaay detuned, ran 8.0's all day, 5 teens in the 1/8th . This was on the slicks in MAKO trim, but he says they are quicker on the radial.

Its all about big hp low torque, being able to pull timing and fuel out down low and let it eat past 100'

so he wants to run a bbf ....... nothing a 7531t couldnt handle ....big bore short stroke ??? correct

dunno Nick, just sayin nobody around these parts goes the BB route..........its just not suited well to the combo.

I'm sure it can be made fast, just not fast enough to be competitive.

You can give it a shot but timing retard can only do so much.

Hell prove me wrong.

Use an N/A big block so you can also use the slicks and 3000 pounds..

4.530" bore x 4.500" Stroke for 581 cubic inches.
ported Kaase P-51 heads.
Roller valve train to match.
Weiand tunnel ram with two Dominators.
2 1/3" headers with the biggest mufflers you can find.

That should easily be way over 1000 horsepower and at 3000 pounds should get you where you need to be.

Is an "A" 460 head considered a "conventional" head ...? It uses all conventional valve train components and valve covers.
If it is ... then there is no question at all, as the horsepower jumps another 100 horsepower.

rmcomprandy wrote:Use an N/A big block so you can also use the slicks and 3000 pounds..

4.530" bore x 4.500" Stroke for 581 cubic inches.
ported Kaase P-51 heads.
Roller valve train to match.
Weiand tunnel ram with two Dominators.
2 1/4" headers with the biggest mufflers you can find.

That should easily be way over 1000 horsepower and at 3000 pounds should get you where you need to be.

Is an "A" 460 head considered a "conventional" head ...? It uses all conventional valve train components and valve covers.
If it is ... then there is no question at all, as the horsepower jumps another 100 horsepower.

This edit didn't exactly work right ... Adding 250 pounds for the nitrous doesn't seem like a good trade-off.

Heres the Mako rules;

This class is intended for Stock Floor Pan, Stock Suspension and Ladder Bar cars.

Cubic inch will be checked randomly at all races, there are no max limits small block, big blocks maximum 638ci. If any particular combination proves to be dominating based off of performance, weight may be adjusted based on cubic inch, or power adder.

Class will run 4 tenths Pro Tree, 1/8th Mile
All cars must be driven to the staging lanes.
Stock front frame rails required (#1 Footnote).
Pre 48 cars see Footnote #3.
Any bolt on K-Member or subframe allowed with original suspension mounting points.
After market front suspension components allowed (#1 footnote).
Front coilovers allowed upper shock or strut must mount in original fashion (#1 footnote).
Floor Pan must be original or factory type replacement to the front of wheel tub or wheel house.
Trunk floor can be modified for fuel cell and pumps.
Transmission may have a removable cover, it will need to be carpeted.
No aftermaket 4 links allowed.
Ladder bars Add 25 lbs.. (Classic Car & all Trucks, no addition) Classic car * See Note 4

Floor pan may be notched for Ladder Bar clearance.
Anti-sway bars allowed.
Leaf springs or coil spring may be moved in-board.
Relocation of rear shock allowed.
Coilovers allowed.
Must have working head lights and taillights.
Rear seat may be removed.
Fiberglass limited to hood, trunk lid, and bumpers.
Lexan allowed, must maintain a factory appearance.
No push nitrous systems.
Fuel injection allowed.
Standard bore space blocks only.
Cast tunnel ram will be allowed on any engine combination add 50 lbs.
Sheet metal intakes allowed naturally aspirated only.
Any bolt on type traction device is permitted.
No wheelie bars.
Mufflers required, No collector mufflers.
Big Chiefs or pro stock style heads on big blocks naturally aspirated only.
Big block Ford and Chrysler must call for head approval 918-451-8212.
Single nitrous bottle
#4 Nitrous line maximum .195 inside diameter for the fitting and the line, minimum 12 inches long. MAKO will have a line that you can purchase that is legal if you would like to.
Bottle must have #4 Male fitting.
If Nitrous Bottle is mounted in trunk, the #4 line may be placed at the solenoid or Y block and a #6 line and bottle nut may be used.
Blower Centrifugal F-1R or equivelant.
F-2 or equivalent with 3.875 (inlet restrictor allowed #2 footnote), F-2 Reverse is legal.
F-2R is not legal.
Alcohol EFI and Mechanical Injection add 100 lbs. No Intercooler with Alcohol.
Roots Blower 10.71 max allowed.
Injector Hat Bird Catcher Max or 45 square inches of inlet area
No ProMag 44's or equivalent
Turbo single 88 mm inlet.
67mm twin turbos allowed, small frame only, reducers allowed.
Alcohol allowed carburetor only.
Alcohol carbureted blow through, no intercooler allowed.
Weights
Blower or turbo big block 3450 lbs.
Nitrous big block 3450 lbs.
Naturally aspirated big block with Big Chief or pro stock style heads 3250 lbs.
Nitrous small blocks inline heads 2900 lbs.
Nitrous small blocks Neal Yates SB2 ect. 3000 lbs.
Turbo small blocks 3325 lbs.
Turbo small blocks Neal Yates SB2 ect. 3375 lbs.
Blower small blocks 3375 lbs.
Blower small blocks Neal Yates SB2 ect. 3425 lbs.
V-6 2 power adders 3150 lbs.
4 cyl 2 power adders and alcohol injected allowed 2700 lbs.
Add 100 lbs. Alcohol EFI and Mechanical Injection.
Add 50 lbs. cast tunnel ram, 2 carburetors.
Add 25 lbs. ladder bars. (Classic Car*, all Trucks no addition) Classic car * See Note 4
F-1R blower Deduct 50 lbs.
Classic Car* Deduct 50 lbs.
Truck Deduct 50 lbs.
Leaf Springs Deduct 25 lbs.
Naturally aspirated deduct 300 lbs.
Front Wheel Drive Deduct 250 lbs.

Any Tire factory specs for tread width less than 10.2" or diameter less than 28.2" deduct 25 Lbs.
Any DOT tire factory specs over 29.5" diameter and 11" tread width add 25 lbs.
Tires
Mickey Thompson
any tire marked to 28.0/10.5 including the W tire
any tire marked to 29.5/10.5 non W

Mickey Thompson ET Street
any tire up to the 28/13.50 or 30/12.50

Mickey Thompson ET Drag Radial or
Hoosier DOT Drag Radial
any Radial no larger than 15" wheel diameter.

Hoosier
any slick marked to 29.5/10.5
[the 18192 and 18175 tires are not legal]

Phoenix
any tire marked to 29.5/10.5

Goodyear
any tire marked to 29.5/11.0

Safety Rules
All applicable safety rules for the track we are racing at apply.



The ET recored is 5.07, mph 147.97

rmcomprandy wrote:Use an N/A big block so you can also use the slicks and 3000 pounds..

4.530" bore x 4.500" Stroke for 581 cubic inches.
ported Kaase P-51 heads.
Roller valve train to match.
Weiand tunnel ram with two Dominators.
2 1/3" headers with the biggest mufflers you can find.

That should easily be way over 1000 horsepower and at 3000 pounds should get you where you need to be.

Is an "A" 460 head considered a "conventional" head ...? It uses all conventional valve train components and valve covers.
If it is ... then there is no question at all, as the horsepower jumps another 100 horsepower.

I believe this would be a solid foundation ...these guys are running in the 4's in this class so i would add the spray on top of that with a progressive controller and let that thing eat all the spray it could !!!!!!

is the A460 a conventional head ??????

The A460 is considered a conventional head by our rules King of the streets .org Jon sears runs that radial class they run at budds creek excellent track, and VMP, good track also but track conditions iffy day by day. he is on the bullet day and night it seems like.

so what kind of times is he turning

Jon, i think his cars are in the 5.70 range his son is driving now, i belive he is more or lest just organizing. i will ask him to get on this site and give a heads up of whats going on, the faster cars in his class are at the 5.00 mark. The King of the Streets class does not allow progressives and only single kits of nos and the times are 5.20-5.70, on 28x10.5 or the 275 radial. I met Jon at VMP when we were running one of the Holcomb events last year.

Suspension Rules
1. Any stock type suspension or ladder bar, stock rear frame rail , stock front frame rail including:
A. Coil overs
B. After market K members
C. After market front sub frame
D. Anti-roll

Weights by combo
2. SB Multiple Systems w/NOS-Blower-Turbo -NA -3100 lb base weight

NOS SB
A. Stock Valve angle 20-23 degree deduct 100 lbs (NOS Combos only, no weight reduction with more than 2 systems)
B. Canted valve limited to 2 systems
C. Single nitrous system deduct 100 lbs.(any other system must be capped off)


BLOWER SB
A. YSi / F1A or = at base weight of 3100 lbs
B. F1C or = add 100 lbs
C. F1R, Xi or = add 200 lbs

TURBO SB
A. 76 mm T6 at base weight of 3100 lbs
B. 80 mm T6 add 100 lbs
C. 85 mm T6 add 200 lbs
D. 88mm T6 add 250 lbs w/85 reducer

N/A SB
A. Deduct 400 lbs

3. Big Block Combos (limited to N/A and NOS only)

NOS BB
A. Standard Deck HT BB Conventional Head Single System NOS 3250 lbs
B. Tall Deck HT BB Conventional Head Single System NOS 3400 lbs (limited to 10.2)

N/A BB
A. Standard Deck HT Conventional Head 3000
B. Tall Deck HT Conventional Head 3100 (limited to 10.2)
C. Standard Deck HT Big Chief 3250

4. General Rules

A. 275 max tire size as printed on sidewall, radial tire
B. Deduct 50 lbs for 275 BFG Drag Radial
C. 28 X 10.5 non W slick allowed on N/A combos
D. All weights are with driver
E. Mufflers on all combo except turbo
F. No wheelie bars
G. Tech reserves the right to accept of reject any car or driver
H. Courtesy Staging is in effect
I. BB limited to 588 cu in (will be subject to P&G)
J. Add 50 lbs for ladder bar
__________________






Virginia Motorsports Park

Ultimate Outlaws November 14, 2009 - 275 Radial Tire

he should be on here soon, got a message to him today

studly wrote:he should be on here soon, got a message to him today

Hello and good day.

I think the 581 N/A BB with the cast tunnel ram on the 28 X 10's would be a tough combo to beat. Add the 7531 with some launch retard and traction would not be an issue. Even though we have had someone go 5.07/139 in race trim it was not during one of our events and does not stand as our class record. Currently the class record is 5.11/140 by a SBF/Xi Trim combo at 3300++ lbs. A SBC Nitrous combo won the overall title and a SBF Nitrous combo won our series within the series OSBA 275 title.

I would certainly welcome new combos to race with us, I like the diversity!

studly wrote:The A460 is considered a conventional head by our rules King of the streets .org Jon sears runs that radial class they run at budds creek excellent track, and VMP, good track also but track conditions iffy day by day. he is on the bullet day and night it seems like.

Being that the A460 is considered a conventional head then I would use a bigger 4.600 bore with a 4.375" stroke for the 582 cubic inches and N/A.
That way the heads can take advantage of using a bigger 2.400" intake valve and the better top end power that the A460 tunnel ram would provide.

Using the slicks and only 3000 pounds would be really tough to beat, especially if consistency is part of the equation.

i think consistency is always an issue in a heads up class, i am building a 532 on nos with eldebrock heads, this is what i have trying to get it together during the winter.

If you don't mind being the slow guy then your combination will work fine.
I thought you were serious about competing but, I now see otherwise.

studly wrote:i think consistency is always an issue in a heads up class, i am building a 532 on nos with eldebrock heads, this is what i have trying to get it together during the winter.

I think Randy's point is that you could build your 532 with at least four, probally five other BB Ford cylinder heads, that would make more power than the Edelbrock cylinder heads.

My pecking order in regards to the heads, knowing what's legal and knowing that you'll be using NOS would be;

1. TFS A-460 - 18 bolt heads
2. TFS A-460 - 10 bolt heads
3. Kaase P-51 heads
4. FRPP SCJ heads
5. Blue Thunder CJ heads with the raised port Chevy bolt pattern
6. TFS Street heads and Edelbrock CJ heads are pretty much even, although the TFS heads have a better chamber design.

Hope this helps,
Charlie

on the pecking order , some say their B/T ported heads (INT)flow on the 400 range, with the chevy exhaust out flows SCJ/P51 -- wouldnt they (BT) be better with the bottle

Dan,

That why I have them listed where they are. Yes, the Blue Thunder CJ heads with the raised port Chevy exhaust are advantageous due the the exhaust's ability to flow 280 cfm numbers, without a test pipe. That's good for nitrous.

HOWEVER, those that talk about the Blue Thunder intakes flowing almost 400 cfm, are guilty of only focusing on that one peak flow number at around .800 -.850" valve lift. It's the total intake flow that is important, and the B.T. heads fall behind the P-51 heads and the FRPP SCJ heads in that regards, because the SCJ and P-51 heads have such great mid-lift flow! Meanwhile, well ported P-51 and FRPP SCJ heads can flow 250-260 cfm without a test pipe on the exhausts.

I hope this helps explain my reasoning,
Charlie

Charlie,

Good information i was thinking about what you talked about the other day.Yeah the Blue Thunder Chevy port would flow better on the exhaust.Then i thought well i bet the P-51 would flow better on the intake since the valve angles are better than the Blue Thunder head.

Thanks Mark.

Charlie my reasone for the BT w/bbc exhaust is on the same thinking you posted about the bigger heads. smaller ex valves with lots of n2o . i just see the bbc exhaust flow making the order level . the bottle users will go max tune . ADD: the sbc n2o racer w/23* heads would pass on the 11RR and take 11X with bigger ex ports, while the 11RR had better intake flow

Dan,

I certainly see your point, and truthfully there are a couple of NMCA racers in one of the nitrous classes that I recommended that we go with the Blue Thunder head with the Chevy pattern raised exhaust. (Note this was before the TFS A-460 heads became legal). So we went with the B.T. heads and I have often debated in my mind, the question of did we choose the best head for this class? An additional problem is that the header situation with the B.T. heads becomes compromised by our shock tower cars. It has never been clearly answered, and the only way to know would be to build the engine with B.T. heads & proper pistons, dyno it on the spray, and rebuild it with the P-51 heads & proper pistons and dyno it again on the spray. Most guys can't afford that.

However now then that the NMCA has accepted the TFS A-460 heads as legal, the question becomes a moot point. A guy would be foolish not to run them. I believe that's what Randy is saying also. I would love to see Jeff Chandler or Cameron Coble jump on board and say let's do this and build a real Ford engine!

Food for thought,
Charlie

should have made myself clear, # 3, 4, 5 being more equal . any A460 head for sure on the top of the list.

432" boss?