Re: Dyno day tomorrow, guess-timates?

dfree383 June 23rd 2014, 11:32 am

BigRigTech wrote:We checked the springs after the cam break in, 160 on the seat at 1.900 installed height and 380 INT/420exh over the nose. A little high in my experience for a solid flat cam but Al said it would be ok with good oil. The cam is in straight up, I don't have a degree wheel. I'm not to concerned about the amount of oil it needed, once I got it home and looked at everything along with some measurements I can see why it needed so much. As for the oil pressure, I tried the drill deal again with the same 10w-30 oil still in it, gauges in the front and rear of the block. 70+psi with the air drill turning pretty slow against the pump. The dyno computer oil pressure was low the instant it started and I can't understand how that could be at 2000rpm with the same oil cold as it sits in my shop showing 70psi or more.

The Engine is not turning over when your on the stand.

BigRigTech June 23rd 2014, 12:04 pm

This is true but where is the oil bleeding off so much compared to before? The cam bearings were new 2yrs ago and 40 passes on them since. New mains at .003, rods are .002. Cam has been changed and the lifters are Johnson hygrade a with a flat spot marchined on the side to aid lobe oiling. It's the first time I've used these particular lifters. Let me ask this - if the machine shop removed the two tapered plugs in the front of the block and put regular plugs back in - could this cause issues with the pressure and pumping it all up top? I forgot to check them before I put the cover on....shit.

rmcomprandy June 23rd 2014, 5:40 pm

Canton is pretty "right-on" with their pan volume numbers. If you needed to put a lot of extra oil in it then you have another problem somewhere.

THAT problem along with the extra oil in the pan might be eating-up the 60 or 70 horsepower you are shy.

dfree383 June 23rd 2014, 5:41 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:Canton is pretty "right-on" with their pan volume numbers. If you needed to put a lot of extra oil in it then you have another problem somewhere.

THAT problem along with the extra oil in the pan might be eating-up the 60 or 70 horsepower you are shy.

That and its missing 600-800 rpm for peak.

BigRigTech June 23rd 2014, 7:29 pm

The engine is back on the stand, the pan is coming off tonight. I can't stand it anymore - I need a look in the belly of the beast. Suspect

here are the dimensions of the pan, they don't match the Canton website from what I can see...Frig knows how old it is or who made it. Rolling Eyes

I'll pull the pan and post my findings if any. I'm open to suggestions on what to look for or do. Question

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dfree383 June 23rd 2014, 7:35 pm

Check the lifters to, they might be dumping oil? I've never cared for the notched stuff, its to common to have work lifter bores and a lot of leaking already.

Thats either a really old canton or some off brand, I've never seen one with the front sump like that.

BigRigTech June 23rd 2014, 7:40 pm

dfree383 wrote:Check the lifters to, they might be dumping oil? I've never cared for the notched stuff, its to common to have work lifter bores and a lot of leaking already.

Thats either a really old canton or some off brand, I've never seen one with the front sump like that.

How would I go about checking the lifters? If like to avoid pulling the intake if possible as I most likely wouldn't have any intake gaskets in time for the next race in two weeks. It took a while to get the last set.

rmcomprandy June 23rd 2014, 9:38 pm

BigRigTech wrote:
dfree383 wrote:Check the lifters to, they might be dumping oil? I've never cared for the notched stuff, its to common to have work lifter bores and a lot of leaking already.

Thats either a really old canton or some off brand, I've never seen one with the front sump like that.

How would I go about checking the lifters? If like to avoid pulling the intake if possible as I most likely wouldn't have any intake gaskets in time for the next race in two weeks. It took a while to get the last set.

Take the pan and windage tray off.
Somehow attach a hose to the oil pump inlet and run it down to a big pan full of oil under the engine.
Now, prime the engine and see where the hemorrhaging of oil is coming from. Are you sure the lifters are the correct diameter...?
Vacuum check the inlet pick-up tube.

BigRigTech June 23rd 2014, 9:49 pm

I think I found my problem. The pickup flange at the pump end isn't flat. When I took it off the gasket was stuck like shit to a wool blanket around the bolt holes but it fell off around the inlet hole. I put my machinist staight edge on the flange and on the pan side I can see day light easily. The gasket was so thin I can't see it sealing it up. So I guess we needed to put do much oil in it to get that area submersed to seal it up. I sealed off the pickup and pressure tested the entire pickup in a 5 gallon bucket of water...not one bubble to be seen. I'll post some pics when I get in the house. The pan was clean and everything looks great inside. I didn't mic the lifters (another lesson learned Rolling Eyes

) but I know they went in with reasonable resistance that in my opinion was normal to my past experience.

BigRigTech June 23rd 2014, 11:22 pm

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This is about 9.5L in the pan....The tray would be submersed at this level.

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BigRigTech June 25th 2014, 11:51 am

I found something else last night. The machinist at work filled the pick up flange flat for me and when I bolted it on one corner was hard on the welch plug beside it. I trimmed that corner off and it sits flat now. I'm pretty confident that between these two items I most Likely found my problem. The pan is back on and I'll try it at the next race in a week and a half. I'll make some easy passes and start with 7L of oil in the pan. It tilts back a lot more in the car so that should help. I Also lowered the pickup to 3/8" off the bottom. I'll post findings. I'm going to get the car weighed so I can see if my hp and ET match in case it picks up some over the dyno numbers.

jones June 25th 2014, 5:15 pm

That defiantly could have been the problem.

Did you do any type of oil restriction work to the lifters? (never mind about that, I was thinking you had solid roller lifters.)

Did you mic the cam bearings? I know that if the clearance starts getting to big you will start losing oil pressure.

BigRigTech June 25th 2014, 7:40 pm

I didn't mic the cam bearings - they were brand new 2 years ago with dyno time and maybe 40 passes since.

rmcomprandy June 25th 2014, 10:22 pm

BigRigTech wrote:I found something else last night. The machinist at work filled the pick up flange flat for me and when I bolted it on one corner was hard on the welch plug beside it. I trimmed that corner off and it sits flat now. I'm pretty confident that between these two items I most Likely found my problem. The pan is back on and I'll try it at the next race in a week and a half. I'll make some easy passes and start with 7L of oil in the pan. It tilts back a lot more in the car so that should help. I Also lowered the pickup to 3/8" off the bottom. I'll post findings. I'm going to get the car weighed so I can see if my hp and ET match in case it picks up some over the dyno numbers.

That corner is a support for the plug so it wont come out. That plug should not be "Proud" to the pick-up flange.
Flatten that plug out with a 3/4" driver.

IF you instantly lose all oil pressure ... you will know the plug came out.

BigRigTech June 25th 2014, 11:32 pm

The pickup flange still covers a good portion of it, I only trimmed a little off the corner where it was touching it. I actually thought about that before I trimmed it but I wasn't sure if I should try to tap the plug in further so I didn't. I have another brand new Melling HV pump here and the plug was proud of the surface on that one too so I thought I shouldn't touch it. Suspect

Its sitting on the floor with the tranny bolted up. Going back in the car tomorrow night. Just have to try it and see how this go. Its a big pan, 7qts on the dipstick isn't very deep in the rear sump.

IDT-572 June 26th 2014, 9:50 am

If you have a good drill you can do like I do, and prime it on the floor and see if it will have cavitation or not. I takes a good drill to open the bypass and you need to have it do that to insure the pump is doing all it can do.

I have even put a starter on it with the plugs out and spin the engine while the drill is running. Run the drill as long as you want.

Put the engine close to the same angle as it is in the car.

This is if the engine has been run and flat tappet cam is broken in or a roller.

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