Building engines with other people's parts...

People just don't seem to understand what is sometimes involved.

Engine builders who do it for a living have usually built several type engines using parts they KNOW will fit together or know exactly what needs to be done to them to make them fit and work well together.

IF you buy your own parts ... you should be the builder and go through the time of addressing exactly what needs to be done to accomplish a finished product by building it yourself or pay the hourly rate of what it takes to be sure everything will work together.

$90.00 per hour is a lower schedule shop rate and if it takes 40 some hours, (a half hour at a time here and there), to pre-assemble, fit, grind, assemble again only to learn of other operations needing to be performed, dis-assembling again , doing whatever is necessary, final assembly and hopefully everything works together
90 times 40  is $3,600.00 extra dollars because of all that extra fitting of YOUR parts is NOT free.

IF you aren't going to build the engine yourself ... getting your own parts is not the thing to do. That is, unless you are willing to PAY for that extra time.
Professionals have already done that work with the parts they know and trust because of previous circumstances and working with different, (your), parts requires this "extra" to be done again.

Be aware when you wish to save a buck or two buy "helping" the engine builder. It doesn't work that way.

What restaurant is going to cook your eggs, fry your bacon and bake your potato...?

X1000 randy has said it as simple as could be!!!

now what's got you going today randy?

gmsmkr wrote:X1000 randy has said it as simple as could be!!!

now what's got you going today randy?

Well it can't be Other peoples Parts.

Randy just cracks me up....

gmsmkr wrote:X1000 randy has said it as simple as could be!!!

now what's got you going today randy?

Well,  just in the last week after Christmas, I have gotten several phone calls from people who have already bought some parts of which I have no first hand familiarity and get irate with me when I mention to them there will be an extra cost of building their engine; as if they were doing me some kind of favor to have gotten those parts already and I should be grateful that they have gone through their aggravation of getting them ahead of time.

Then they seem to get even more enraged when I tell them I have no interest in building their engine and they should try somewhere else ... like I owe them something for calling and I have no right to refuse their work.

This kind of potential customer entitlement drives me crazy.

And everybody knows what needs to be done too...... Even though they have never done it before...

I have went through what Randy is talking about, but not near as many times as he I bet.Most car guys that haven't even assembled a engine, doesn't have a clue how much time that the preperation even takes.

All ya gotta do is watch TV.  Willie B. will show you all you need to know.

Honestly, Randy...I think that's where people get the idea that you only need to buy a bunch of parts and screw 'em together. They've seen it on the tube, so that's all there is to it.

Oh come on Randy.... you just KNOW you want to mess with those "funkinwinkel' parts... admit it...

20+ years ago I asked my machinist (at the time) to make my 351C iron heads adjustable by machining the pedestals, being primarily chevy he said I don't have a jig for that but if you want me to make them I will create one, the cost of the research, setup and jig cost me more than the valve terrain, but the availability of the adjustable heads was limited so he created the jig, to which he was glad he did, as was I. He did numerous sets after that and I was the only one never to pay the setup charge again, funding the original cost was worth it to me, and him. This was a different generation, I did not show up with a box full of parts I bought off of eBay looking to have him build me the baddest engine in the land, or have an unreasonable budget for his work. This happens in all professions, the current sense of entitlement for many is unbelievable.

69bluehotrod wrote:Oh come on Randy.... you just KNOW you want to mess with those "funkinwinkel' parts...  admit it...

It really does not matter to me using other parts ... IF ... I get paid for whatever extra time it takes to make them work together and that is impossible to be shown on a pre-job estimate.

I have a lot of return customers who DO understand this.

I had a lot of different pieces for my engine from a lot of different people to put my 557 Aheaded deal together.It's been in makings for about 4 years.I took it all to JetBoat and payed him to make sure everything was properly machined and fitted. I even bit the bullet and had him to assemble the shortblock and make sure all clearances on heads ,valves,bearings and everything was right.It wasn't cheap,but now hopefully it's right.Payed him in full yesterday. I've got $20,000 invested,I just couldn't feel comfortable wondering if i got everything spot on ,and a lot of stuff had to be changed to make it right.It's pretty ,just hope it's a good strong piece.

Randy, could you elaborate on what parts you mean?? I have been collecting parts for years and hope one day to have an engine built. Would it be reasonable to supply you with the block (needing to machined), heads (ported with flow numbers) crank (new) Rods (new) Timing chain set (new) Oil pan, oil pump, oil pump drive shaft, timing cover, water pump, distributor, intake manifold, valve covers, or would you not want to have these things supplied?? I understand that depending on the camshaft chosen you might have to redo some of the valve train,(IE springs, heights etc. But would leave the piston and ring selections as well as the cam with you and also the bearing selection. Is this too many parts to be supplied?? What if any parts would you be willing for the customer to supply?? I understand your frustration, but you have to understand too that some of us try to save money on the parts by finding deals over time so that we can afford to have you or someone like you to build our dream engine. Would it be more reasonable if we just brought you a rebuild-able core for you to work with? Thanks for your insight.

for this reason is why I do it as a sideline ...... never make a living at doin it.

I agree with your post 100% Been there, done that..

richter69 wrote:for this reason is why I do it as a sideline ...... never make a living at doin it.

X2 its fun but not that fun! I'd rather do it to help buddies out and have fun, the business side of it get to ugly with the general public.

Its also the guy with the basket of assorted scrap yard relics and internet specials that expects you to get max hp and do it in minimal time for pennies.

kim wrote:Its also the guy with the basket of assorted scrap yard relics and internet specials that expects you to get max hp and do it in minimal time for pennies.

And stay together when it turns 9500 rpm................

Randy, do you just like to bitch? Researching, buying parts and asking questions for many is an attempt to learn and MAYBE save a little money. You pay retail or sticker for everything you buy? Brand loyal to a fault or ever compare? Ever complain when a bill comes due and it turns out a lot higher than what you were expected or told? Life happens. Get over it.

Rant off.

P.S. I currently have a 351C project at the machine shop with a 2100 bill and I will be doing the assembly. I'm cool with it and don't mind to pay for the assembly if I run out of time. Also, I've paid "reputable" shops to assemble my last two short blocks and I had to redo the 552 myself and I'm about to take the 472 apart for an oil pressure and blow by issue. I'm pissed at no one but I know who won't be doing my work in the future. I think the new guy is awesome and has already shown himself to be very competent and fair on charges. I understand that you have a good reputation. Ever had to do anything over? Don't lie?

O.k., now the rant is off.

Frank

738drvr wrote:Randy, I completely missed the point... BUT... blah blah blah

Frank

I'm pretty sure Randy's rant wasn't a "RMCompetition Is The Best" post...

And if your selection in engine "builders" is so bad that you've had to "redo" them yourself more than once, why not just "do" them yourself?

If you had read past the first sentence, you would have read that I am doing them myself. Finished the 552. 351 stroker is getting machine work right now. I'll finish that one in the next 4-6 weeks. Starting the teardown this weekend on the 472 in MY shop. I get tired of Randy coming on the different sites and bitching about what bugs him. I thought I would give him some of his own medicine. It's not personal. It's an observation. I'm sure Randy does good work.

Frank

738drvr wrote:If you had read past the first sentence, you would have read that I am doing them myself. Finished the 552. 351 stroker is getting machine work right now. I'll finish that one in the next 4-6 weeks. Starting the teardown this weekend on the 472 in MY shop. I get tired of Randy coming on the different sites and bitching about what bugs him. I thought I would give him some of his own medicine. It's not personal. It's an observation. I'm sure Randy does good work.

Frank

I for sure read your entire post.. a couple times before responding myself.  Your point on many wanting to save cash on parts shopping is valid, but you seemed to miss Randy's point on working with said parts which many times are unknown, making for increased build costs.  It's this increased build cost that customers of Randy's decide to bitch about, which they bring upon themselves, that he was making the post about.  He's not the only one either... see the other responses in this thread.

738drvr wrote:Randy, do you just like to bitch? Researching, buying parts and asking questions for many is an attempt to learn and MAYBE save a little money. You pay retail or sticker for everything you buy? Brand loyal to a fault or ever compare? Ever complain when a bill comes due and it turns out a lot higher than what you were expected or told? Life happens. Get over it.

Rant off.

P.S. I currently have a 351C project at the machine shop with a 2100 bill and I will be doing the assembly. I'm cool with it and don't mind to pay for the assembly if I run out of time. Also, I've paid "reputable" shops to assemble my last two short blocks and I had to redo the 552 myself and I'm about to take the 472 apart for an oil pressure and blow by issue. I'm pissed at no one but I know who won't be doing my work in the future. I think the new guy is awesome and has already shown himself to be very competent and fair on charges. I understand that you have a good reputation. Ever had to do anything over? Don't lie?

O.k., now the rant is off.

Frank

You apparently have no clue about what some other people envision ... I have nothing against you or anybody else learning and buying whatever you wish.
Simply do not have the expectations that someone else is going to make it into a running engine; especially having them spending extra hours and not getting paid for it by doing the extra for free.

NOT bitching ... I just feel that pointing out ignorance and stupidity about unrealistic expectations can be helpful to your LEARNING process.

In my professional life, I have never needed to do anything over again which was due to miss-assembly.  
Ported heads springing a water leak, new castings, (head, intake or block), which are porous, parts breakage or simply assembling other peoples parts where you don't know their true history will always make things need to be done over.

in my industry its called "C.O.G." customers own garbage....... we charge them double for labor

bruno wrote:in my industry its called "C.O.G." customers own garbage....... we charge them double for labor

and Who are you? do we know you?