903 HP 514 with iron CJ heads

68galaxie February 12th 2015, 10:35 am

I read an article on YB that mentioned a 514 BBF with iron CJ heads that made 903 HP.
Made reference to an old 460Ford thread: http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164377
It certainly had a big SR camshaft and high compression. I had no idea 900+ could be made with iron CJ heads
and the low exhaust port flow (let alone a less than ideal combustion chamber design).
I have seen many builds where P51's make less HP/Cu Inch than the old iron head. 1.76 hp/cu in is on the high side for most builds I would think, let alone an iron headed engine.
I am not really questioning the build, if an iron CJ head can make 1.76 hp/cu in than even the old A429 should be above that
with a better combustion chamber and exhaust flow.
Now the SCJ and P51's should be well above that figure as they have better comb chamber and valve positioning.

What am I missing here?

rmcomprandy February 12th 2015, 10:40 am

68galaxie wrote:I read an article on YB that mentioned a 514 BBF with iron CJ heads that made 903 HP.
Made reference to an old 460Ford thread: http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164377
It certainly had a big SR camshaft and high compression. I had no idea 900+ could be made with iron CJ heads
and the low exhaust port flow (let alone a less than ideal combustion chamber design).
I have seen many builds where P51's make less HP/Cu Inch than the old iron head. 1.76 hp/cu in is on the high side for most builds I would think, let alone an iron headed engine.
I am not really questioning the build, if an iron CJ head can make 1.76 hp/cu in than even the old A429 should be above that
with a better combustion chamber and exhaust flow.
Now the SCJ and P51's should be well above that figure as they have better comb chamber and valve positioning.

What am I missing here?

REV it high enough and you can make that power after days, (maybe weeks), of tuning to get the right combination.

68formalGT February 12th 2015, 11:25 am

Truck pullers with class limitations turning 9500 rpm!!

dfree383 February 12th 2015, 11:46 am

They work. But don't think the P-51s are not better. The majority of the builds with them are not max effort.

The a429s are just an aluminum version of the iron heads.

hookin78 February 12th 2015, 12:12 pm

And multiple trips to the dyno..... Very Happy

and lots of manifold work..... Cool

gt350hr February 12th 2015, 1:59 pm

For someone like Randy who has worked with these heads forever on iron head class pulling trucks , it's no surprise. For those who can use aluminum heads and take the easy way out it is impressive. It's not easy , but as you see it can be done.

bbf-falcon February 12th 2015, 1:59 pm

Talk with Bret Powell, maybe he will build you one of your own. Very Happy

68galaxie February 12th 2015, 2:23 pm

It certainly looks impressive!

Lem Evans February 12th 2015, 11:37 pm

Give the iron CJ guys the P51 casting and a no A460 head rule...the welders and grinders will come out and stuff will happen.

the Coug February 13th 2015, 7:23 am

There are head porters and then their are people who port heads. that is the difference...

68galaxie February 13th 2015, 10:17 am

As the SCJ and P51 are far better starting points than the old CJ head (everyone agrees).
We should be seeing well over 1000 hp 514" engines with P51 heads.
I have only seen one 1000+ HP build, I think it was Blakes 580" 15:1 engine (1003 hp). It was certainly a near max effort? This still puts the iron CJ head at a HP/Cu inch advantage. Weird.

dfree383 February 13th 2015, 10:26 am

Get a set P51 heads, Give them to Brett Powell and tell him you want a max effort 514 for pulling that has no rules.

rmcomprandy February 13th 2015, 11:14 am

Lem Evans wrote:Give the iron CJ guys the P51 casting and a no A460 head rule...the welders and grinders will come out and stuff will happen.

X2 ... those high horsepower iron Cobra Jet heads have THOUSANDS of dollars in brazing and work hours to get them to the point they are at.

68formalGT February 13th 2015, 11:25 am

dfree383 wrote:Get a set P51 heads, Give them to Brett Powell and tell him you want a max effort 514 for pulling that has no rules.

Don't forget to give him a signed blank check!

68galaxie February 13th 2015, 11:59 am

I am not arguing that the iron heads had $$$ thrown at them, as I am sure the intake manifold did too.
I guess with the aluminum offerings, one just goes to A460 or better when wanting high power outputs.

Cheers guys

68formalGT February 13th 2015, 12:22 pm

68galaxie wrote:I am not arguing that the iron heads had $$$ thrown at them, as I am sure the intake manifold did too.
I guess with the aluminum offerings, one just goes to A460 or better when wanting high power outputs.

Cheers guys

Usually it comes down to the rules for a specific class.

dfree383 February 13th 2015, 12:31 pm

68galaxie wrote:I am not arguing that the iron heads had $$$ thrown at them, as I am sure the intake manifold did too.
I guess with the aluminum offerings, one just goes to A460 or better when wanting high power outputs.

Cheers guys

Like has been said most of it has to do with rules and budget.

In Brett's case the rules make him run iron and he's willing to spend the time and $$ to make them bad assed.

But take away those rules and I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't run them.

hookin78 February 13th 2015, 2:13 pm

Some times it just takes some thinkin outside of the box..... money can help, but so can time , patience, willingness and research.

This engine was built for around 14K if memory serves me right. But, time in research and much of the time in labor was not charged for.

68formalGT February 13th 2015, 2:44 pm

dfree383 wrote:But take away those rules and I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't run them.

Speaking for myself and working with the rules that I mud race in I wouldn't do it again. For what I've spent I could have been at least half way to a really good set of new A460 heads or a used set of C460 heads.

68galaxie February 13th 2015, 7:37 pm

It would be very interesting to actually see the extent of the modifications made to the iron CJ head.
I assume reshaped ports - brazing fill?
Combustion chamber modifications?
Valve position changes? maybe to P51 locations?

or is this all still secret stuff?

hookin78 February 13th 2015, 8:32 pm

There is no brazing on the exhaust port , valves are in the stock locactions , chamber is worked a very tiny amount , the key is in the pressure wave tuning .... And "total combination".... No one magical part ... Due to the fact that I built this for someone else , Im not going to "forever save " this information on the digital land of the Internet .. But I will say that some of the specs on the intake , heads and camshaft are a touch different from standard ordinary builds. This collective information has not simply come from me but many in the BBF world and simply pooled together and used ....

God bless ,

Brandon

IDT-572 February 13th 2015, 11:34 pm

hookin78 wrote:There is no brazing on the exhaust port , valves are in the stock locactions , chamber is worked a very tiny amount , the key is in the pressure wave tuning .... And "total combination"....  No one magical part ...  Due to the fact that I built this for someone else , Im not going to "forever save " this information on the digital land of the Internet .. But I will say that some of the specs on the intake , heads and camshaft are a touch different from standard ordinary builds.  This collective information has not simply come from me but many in the BBF world and simply pooled together and used ....

God bless ,

Brandon

Well said Brandon................ Like someone said, thinking outside of the box, and willing to take the time to maximize the total package is the key. Figuring out cam and head flow isn't all that makes an engine make hp at a high rpm.

rmcomprandy February 14th 2015, 12:50 am

hookin78 wrote:There is no brazing on the exhaust port , valves are in the stock locactions , chamber is worked a very tiny amount , the key is in the pressure wave tuning .... And "total combination".... No one magical part ... Due to the fact that I built this for someone else , Im not going to "forever save " this information on the digital land of the Internet .. But I will say that some of the specs on the intake , heads and camshaft are a touch different from standard ordinary builds. This collective information has not simply come from me but many in the BBF world and simply pooled together and used ....

God bless ,

Brandon

Sorry Brandon ... I misunderstood what the OP was talking about.
I was referring to Bret Powel's 470 engine making over 900 horsepower with well modified iron Cobra Jet heads at over 9,200 RPM.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=479549182070121&set=vb.149895178369272&type=3&theater

68galaxie February 14th 2015, 11:15 am

Thanks Randy, and others.
Wave tuning certainly will require time and effort to correct the port taper, csa, and lengths. Very cool.
I am guessing the high rpm -(above 6500) makes wave tuning very effective.
PFC link is great, looks like a nice "little" shop.

hookin78 February 14th 2015, 12:06 pm

Bret has definitely put in the shop time and has been willing to work outside the box , his results show this as well .... Definitely a work of engine art .. And yes by the pictures his attention to detail shows in his shop cleanliness and organization as well

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903 HP 514 with iron CJ heads

903 HP 514 with iron CJ heads

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