Short shaft build advice needed

I have a short shaft C6 I;m putting behind the 545 in my '32 and am building it myself. This is my first attempt at an auto, so actually need advice in 2 areas.
I've researched as much online as I can and bought the Bad Shoes DVD, so have an idea what's involved with a normal rebuild. The issues I'll have are
1) Rollerizing it - which seems pretty starighforward, though it's complicated a bit by..
2) There are no competent machine shops close to me, so I have to rely on off-the-shelf components. I don't NEED to go low gear kit, but it has components from #1 that make it easier. I guess the biggest complication is adding clutches and steels as needed to handle HP (should come in around 700hp). Without a good machine shop, cutting grooves to add discs isn't an option so need available modified components.
With the supply issues we're experiencing, Broader doesn't have availability of some things, so it's come down trying to identify what parts I need and sourcing them from multiple suppliers. Here's where I need the experience from the board.

Hmmm. Wrong board huh?

I know that there are a lot of guys that don't like ebay but..... 5 friction high clutch drums are on there.  I have bought hard parts on there on various occasions and did ok.  The low gear ratio kits are really just repackaged E4OD/4R100 gear trains.  They pretty much go right in with the exception of one cut to trim the sun shell to clear the band.  The kits should have this done already.

Uglytruck wrote:I know that there are a lot of guys that don't like ebay but..... 5 friction high clutch drums are on there.  I have bought hard parts on there on various occasions and did ok.  The low gear ratio kits are really just repackaged E4OD/4R100 gear trains.  They pretty much go right in with the exception of one cut to trim the sun shell to clear the band.  The kits should have this done already.

Thanks, this helps a lot. I spent too much time going back and forth about going low gear set or not and finally worked it out on paper. Slightly shorter 1st gear, but shouldn't outweigh the convenience of getting it rollerized in a kit. I'm already looking for a backup short shaft core and may keep the original gearing and compare which actually works better for my combination.

Look up Frank Merkl on YouTube . He has a recent set of videos on all you need to know

Frank also sells billet drums loaded I believe . He is the C6 man

Thanks Gregaust, Did not know Frank had vids out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpqvfp-X5OY

Rollerizing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQdweLLQMJ8

Slowride wrote:I have a short shaft C6 I;m putting behind the 545 in my '32 and am building it myself. This is my first attempt at an auto, so actually need advice in 2 areas.
I've researched as much online as I can and bought the Bad Shoes DVD, so have an idea what's involved with a normal rebuild. The issues I'll have are
1) Rollerizing it - which seems pretty starighforward, though it's complicated a bit by..
2) There are no competent machine shops close to me, so I have to rely on off-the-shelf components. I don't NEED to go low gear kit, but it has components from #1 that make it easier. I guess the biggest complication is adding clutches and steels as needed to handle HP (should come in around 700hp). Without a good machine shop, cutting grooves to add discs isn't an option so need available modified components.
With the supply issues we're experiencing, Broader doesn't have availability of some things, so it's come down trying to identify what parts I need and sourcing them from multiple suppliers. Here's where I need the experience from the board.

Watch Frank M's Video the second one I posted that Gearaust mentioned. Write all the measurements down on paper. He is likely the best C6 builder there is still alive that will share his knowledge and Dyno's his test mules on a Transmission Dyno.

Get a ATSG manual for the C6 if you don't have one.

Be very careful with after market servo's and housings for HP, some have dimension problems new.

Depending on your drums some can be made to work on a higher clutch count with different snap rings.

It is my firm belief that at some HP point a  reverse manual valve body must be used for a C6 to live.

The only guy that gets them right now is Frank in my opinion, as all the Guys that use to be able to in Texas and likely the U.S. have died or retired. Not many people race c6's to his level anymore is what I believe is the likely reason.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115346979631  Selective Snap Rings

There are other tricks on the high clutch drums also.

The Forward drum is the one I have seen burn clutchs the most, take that as you will. Smooth clutchs and a belville spring is what I suspect, just a hunch.

Have Fun Learning and more oil clearance on drums/clutchs is better from my experience as long as it is in spec..

For that matter the bearing/thrust washers also when in reason.

Be Ware of Most all C6 shift kits at this level Too.

BeWare, Lots of little Pitfalls with C6 parts. Been There Done That.

https://www.429-460.com/t23188-direct-clutches-return-spring-length

The Overdrive Planiterys(Sp) have 4 pinions vs 3 and are stronger. That is what makes them worthwhile. Or another reason anyway.

supervel45 wrote:

Slowride wrote:I have a short shaft C6 I;m putting behind the 545 in my '32 and am building it myself. This is my first attempt at an auto, so actually need advice in 2 areas.
I've researched as much online as I can and bought the Bad Shoes DVD, so have an idea what's involved with a normal rebuild. The issues I'll have are
1) Rollerizing it - which seems pretty starighforward, though it's complicated a bit by..
2) There are no competent machine shops close to me, so I have to rely on off-the-shelf components. I don't NEED to go low gear kit, but it has components from #1 that make it easier. I guess the biggest complication is adding clutches and steels as needed to handle HP (should come in around 700hp). Without a good machine shop, cutting grooves to add discs isn't an option so need available modified components.
With the supply issues we're experiencing, Broader doesn't have availability of some things, so it's come down trying to identify what parts I need and sourcing them from multiple suppliers. Here's where I need the experience from the board.

Watch Frank M's Video the second one I posted that Gearaust mentioned. Write all the measurements down on paper. He is likely the best C6 builder there is still alive that will share his knowledge and Dyno's his test mules on a Transmission Dyno.

Get a ATSG manual for the C6 if you don't have one.

Be very careful with after market servo's and housings for HP, some have dimension problems new.

Depending on your drums some can be made to work on a higher clutch count with different snap rings.

It is my firm belief that at some HP point a  reverse manual valve body must be used for a C6 to live.

The only guy that gets them right now is Frank in my opinion, as all the Guys that use to be able to in Texas and likely the U.S. have died or retired. Not many people race c6's to his level anymore is what I believe is the likely reason.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115346979631  Selective Snap Rings

There are other tricks on the high clutch drums also.

The Forward drum is the one I have seen burn clutchs the most, take that as you will. Smooth clutchs and a belville spring is what I suspect, just a hunch.

Have Fun Learning and more oil clearance on drums/clutchs is better from my experience as long as it is in spec..

For that matter the bearing/thrust washers also when in reason.

Be Ware of Most all C6 shift kits at this level Too.

Great info, thanks. I guess I'm just stubborn and should have gone PG (and may still wind up there), but I've watched Frank's videos and soaked up as much as possible. I'll be contacting him as I am going rmvb. The Sonnax servo issue has always confused me... why don't they just fix it in production? Whatever, that's mainly the reason I've bought a Superior Super R servo and Sonnax "E" lever.
The whole build on this car is about doing things I haven't done before and learning from it. Much of this will make way more sense once I break down the trans and actually get my hands dirty. Worst that can happen is I waste some time, piss away a few bucks and break some parts, right?

I have sonax servo installed out of the box with no issues. Behind 1000 hp. If I’m not mistaken you can use 2 tapered pressure plates and get 1 more clutch and steel without any machine work. It’s been a while since I’ve done one. It’s better to move the groove up so you can keep the thicker pressure plate though.

I’m not totally convinced you’d need to do anything other than build it with good alto clutches and band at that hp level in that light of a vehicle. You can drop in a 2-1/2” wide band with no modifications at all if you like. The C6 is pretty damn tough even in stock form.

stanger68 wrote:I have sonax servo installed out of the box with no issues. Behind 1000 hp. If I’m not mistaken you can use 2 tapered pressure plates and get 1 more clutch and steel without any machine work. It’s been a while since I’ve done one. It’s better to move the groove up so you can keep the thicker pressure plate though.

I’m not totally convinced you’d need to do anything other than build it with good alto clutches and band at that hp level in that light of a vehicle. You can drop in a 2-1/2” wide band with no modifications at all if you like. The C6 is pretty damn tough even in stock form.

2 things are having me build it this way. First, it IS light and will be footbraking it until/if I go transbrake. Second, this is the "mild" engine... 10.5:1 and SCJ heads, so the other block will be better planned. More compression, better heads and hopefully the lessons learned setting it up with this engine will make it faster later.

https://broaderperformance.com/product/c6-high-pressure-forward-piston/

Has anyone tried this piston on the forward drum?

supervel45 wrote:https://broaderperformance.com/product/c6-high-pressure-forward-piston/

Has anyone tried this piston on the forward drum?

Yes I have done one build with that piston .

That looks very nice Greg. I looked at the Broader link after I posted it again, and it said Out of Stock. Hopefully they get some more. Can you shed anymore light on the piston vs the stock unit?

If anyone has problems with a Sonnax Servo Assembly, GregAust has the measurements in this thread below. Thought I'd stick it here since it buried pretty deep in the in the Transmission Forum and came up again here.

https://www.429-460.com/t26334-c6-shifting-hard-into-high-gear

^^^ Greg also has all the Servo Spring Specs. as well as the wire size of them in page 1 of the Above Thread

That seems to be hard to come by info, I don't recall seeing the spring info in all the books or shift kit instructions.

Slowride wrote:

supervel45 wrote:

Slowride wrote:I have a short shaft C6 I;m putting behind the 545 in my '32 and am building it myself. This is my first attempt at an auto, so actually need advice in 2 areas.
I've researched as much online as I can and bought the Bad Shoes DVD, so have an idea what's involved with a normal rebuild. The issues I'll have are
1) Rollerizing it - which seems pretty starighforward, though it's complicated a bit by..
2) There are no competent machine shops close to me, so I have to rely on off-the-shelf components. I don't NEED to go low gear kit, but it has components from #1 that make it easier. I guess the biggest complication is adding clutches and steels as needed to handle HP (should come in around 700hp). Without a good machine shop, cutting grooves to add discs isn't an option so need available modified components.
With the supply issues we're experiencing, Broader doesn't have availability of some things, so it's come down trying to identify what parts I need and sourcing them from multiple suppliers. Here's where I need the experience from the board.

Watch Frank M's Video the second one I posted that Gearaust mentioned. Write all the measurements down on paper. He is likely the best C6 builder there is still alive that will share his knowledge and Dyno's his test mules on a Transmission Dyno.

Get a ATSG manual for the C6 if you don't have one.

Be very careful with after market servo's and housings for HP, some have dimension problems new.

Depending on your drums some can be made to work on a higher clutch count with different snap rings.

It is my firm belief that at some HP point a  reverse manual valve body must be used for a C6 to live.

The only guy that gets them right now is Frank in my opinion, as all the Guys that use to be able to in Texas and likely the U.S. have died or retired. Not many people race c6's to his level anymore is what I believe is the likely reason.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115346979631  Selective Snap Rings

There are other tricks on the high clutch drums also.

The Forward drum is the one I have seen burn clutchs the most, take that as you will. Smooth clutchs and a belville spring is what I suspect, just a hunch.

Have Fun Learning and more oil clearance on drums/clutchs is better from my experience as long as it is in spec..

For that matter the bearing/thrust washers also when in reason.

Be Ware of Most all C6 shift kits at this level Too.

Great info, thanks. I guess I'm just stubborn and should have gone PG (and may still wind up there), but I've watched Frank's videos and soaked up as much as possible. I'll be contacting him as I am going rmvb. The Sonnax servo issue has always confused me... why don't they just fix it in production? Whatever, that's mainly the reason I've bought a Superior Super R servo and Sonnax "E" lever.
The whole build on this car is about doing things I haven't done before and learning from it. Much of this will make way more sense once I break down the trans and actually get my hands dirty. Worst that can happen is I waste some time, piss away a few bucks and break some parts, right?

This is just my opinion. If you go with one of Frank's Reverse Manual Valve Bodies with a Transbrake I would not stray from his build specifications, for best results. He has the spring rates and lever ratios and timing down pat.

Do not overlook the 18 1.4" spring deal when swapping valve bodies!

Here is a link to a Ford C6 manual PDF. I would put it direct but, they mentioned not to. You can scroll down and go to it if need be. It also has many other Ford Trans Manual.




https://www.fordtruckzone.com/threads/transmission-tech-manuals.674582/

supervel45 wrote:That looks very nice Greg. I looked at the  Broader link after I posted it again, and it said Out of Stock. Hopefully they get some more. Can you shed  anymore light on the piston vs the stock unit?

In reality , the factory piston does ok .
That Broader piston is nice . It was supplied to me to use, the guy I built that C6 for ordered a lot of parts from Broader.
My thoughts are with the clutch applied, the added flat surface under the belleville may offer a little added support under the tangs on the belleville

I found this also on the C6 Forward Drum from Frank M.

He gives a few part numbers and a little TCS info with one of their part numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBj4R2zYctc