Engine diagram / Valvetrain illustration software

jones December 9th 2022, 1:00 pm

Does anyone know if there is a software that illustrates a running engine? (Dimensionally accurate)

A program that you could input the following:
1. deck Height, cylinder degree, bore, stroke, rod length, piston height
2. Cam tunnel height, cam diameter, cam degree, lobe pattern (input the cam lobe as graphed)
3. Lifter design, pushrod length, rocker arm height, rocker ratio, valve height,

I was watching a Steve Morris video and he was going over how to measure pushrods. I thought it would be a great tool if we had a way to illustrate the geometry. I really would like to graph how a camshaft lobe pattern changes as it goes through different length pushrods and rocker ratios with a final valve graph based on engine degrees.

As you know just doing the (paper napkin) math doesn't give you the correct answer. I always thought it would be fun to illustrate a engine accurately with it's flaws. Maybe eventually evolving to flow rates by taking real world exhaust pressures and intake pressures. I am also curious how the valve graphs if it is a canted valve setup.

Especially with turbocharged applications that run 2:1 or greater drive pressures. 45lbs on the intake valve, 90+lbs behind the exhaust valve and combustion pressures.

jones December 9th 2022, 1:15 pm

I know you could do this in real world with dial indicators if you really wanted to know. It would be a fun activity IMO. Have your camshaft lobes digitized, install into a engine then setup a dial indicator on the pushrod side and another soon the valve side and graph the moments at each degree.

supervel45 December 10th 2022, 1:56 am

Overhead Valve Stuff but interesting none the less.

http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files/Honda/F1-SP2_09e.pdf

jones December 10th 2022, 9:37 pm

supervel45 wrote:Overhead Valve Stuff but interesting none the less.

http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files/Honda/F1-SP2_09e.pdf

Thank you, I love to read things like this. I've often wondered why OHC cylinder heads in the drag racing industry hasn't take off. I can only assume there hasn't been that great of a need.

The Ford Coyote is looking to be the future Ford powerhouse engine. The only negative I ever hear is that they are "wide" engine and the chain guides wearing out. Would be interesting to see how the pushrod 7.3 / 6.8 compare.
I want to learn more about the Coyote and 7.3 to be able to hold a semi knowledgable conversation.

Did you know the Coyote cam gears where oblong? I have seen this in mountain biking but never thought about it being in a engine!

jones December 10th 2022, 10:03 pm

I have been involved wit CAD and BIM my whole life up to 2019. I always wanted my own personal 3d modeling software and analysis tools but never been able to afford them. Actually it's been a problem for my employment, I tired to get a job as a draftsman with a company that used Solid Works but the only thing I'm familiar with is Autocad, Tekla and Bric Cad. They wanted my experience but the drafting manager wanted a college graduate that was fresh in Solid Works! How am I suppose to afford the Solid Works software to learn on??

I have a old version of AutoCad 2000 that I can 2d draw components at different degrees but I ultimately would like to draw the entire engine and then input different specifications that would give me a valve graph, piston speed etc... I just don't know what software is out there that might do what I want.

I tried Fusion 360 and that was a total mess!! I have been using Autocad since the 90's and am use to those commands. Fusion 360 be doing some crazy. crap stuff! I came way too close to throwing my keyboard across the room!! Not to mention that it's prescription based software, it wants to call home any time you ask it to do something and when you ain't got decent reliable internet it just crashes!!

supervel45 December 10th 2022, 11:43 pm

I guessed so Ford could sell more chains and tensioners. No I did not know about them but, that was the first thing that popped into my head, LoL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuTpDa0K5TA

I am not into all the computer design stuff, although I do find it interesting from a layman's prospective. Did you look into the HOOPS by chance?

I would also suspect the good stuff is held back by the big manufacturer's for their top engineering teams.

https://www.techsoft3d.com/products/hoops/native-platform/?utm_term=%2B3d%20%2Bgraphics%20%2Bengine&utm_campaign=Visualize&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_tgt=kwd-390687040293&hsa_grp=56819642313&hsa_src=g&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_mt=b&hsa_ver=3&hsa_ad=519378441982&hsa_acc=8474814889&hsa_kw=%2B3d%20%2Bgraphics%20%2Bengine&hsa_cam=1403503135&gclid=CjwKCAiA-dCcBhBQEiwAeWidtWdDYG0azaRDk-P8dvBBTH0Kf-MNs-6ZvN1HZPWT8AddtzBraq7iBhoC0coQAvD_BwE

supervel45 December 11th 2022, 12:12 am

And about those camshaft sprockets, this is fairly new info from Comp.Cams. About 7/8 down the page read the part about 10,000 and 11,800 Rpm's. Very Interesting, especially when you add in the 5.0 sprockets to that mix.

https://www.designjudges.com/articles/dynamic-valve-event-optimization

jones December 12th 2022, 7:53 pm

Thank you for the info!!
According to MMR the Oblong sprockets help with the VVT. They said if you try to use their “perfect circle” sprockets with the VVT it will break its self.
In bicycles they use oblong gears for climbing mountain setups. It supposedly gives you a little mechanical advantage.

supervel45 December 13th 2022, 12:17 am

This is kinda what I was getting at form the Comp. Cams link and the camshaft Rpm variation. The Cosworth DFV cam plate from the Ford Cosworth in the link and the oblong 5.0 gears set off a bell for some reason. I looked into it further, and did not know it was even Ford related engine. I wonder if any of the old stuff transferred to the 5.0 VVT somehow? Thanks for the Info, always good to learn.

https://forums.autosport.com/topic/181228-a-technical-question-about-the-dfv/

supervel45 December 13th 2022, 1:55 am

If they can ever get this right it will be nice, I guess. Have you looked into it much?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0

jones December 13th 2022, 9:29 am

Thank you for the links it took me a moment to go through them properly.

jones December 13th 2022, 9:36 am

supervel45 wrote:If they can ever get this right it will be nice, I guess. Have you looked into it much?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0

I haven’t read anything lately on it. That is certainly a company that I would love to be a part of!

jones December 13th 2022, 9:53 am

After reading that article from Comp and thinking about the oval gears. I’m wondering if they are creating a frequency into the oil system via the guide/chain tensioners. Would be interesting to learn about the engineering behind that.

jones December 13th 2022, 10:18 am

supervel45 wrote:
I am not into all the computer design stuff, although I do find it interesting from a layman's prospective. Did you look into the HOOPS by chance?

I would also suspect the good stuff is held back by the big manufacturer's for their top engineering teams.

https://www.techsoft3d.com/products/hoops/native-platform/?utm_term=%2B3d%20%2Bgraphics%20%2Bengine&utm_campaign=Visualize&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_tgt=kwd-390687040293&hsa_grp=56819642313&hsa_src=g&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_mt=b&hsa_ver=3&hsa_ad=519378441982&hsa_acc=8474814889&hsa_kw=%2B3d%20%2Bgraphics%20%2Bengine&hsa_cam=1403503135&gclid=CjwKCAiA-dCcBhBQEiwAeWidtWdDYG0azaRDk-P8dvBBTH0Kf-MNs-6ZvN1HZPWT8AddtzBraq7iBhoC0coQAvD_BwE

The problem with some of these software is it takes an entire team just to setup the tools inside the software. I used “Tekla” to model Pre-Engineered steel buildings. It took a team of people just to develop the tools we used to run the software. Even then the Engineers had to run a different software for the finite processing for wind loads / earthquake code compliance.
I hope that AI can one day help minimize the all the cobbling together of software it takes.

In my mind it’s should be easy. If you know the shape, material and atmosphere effecting the part it should give you a great starting point.

I saw NASA was using a nuclear reactor to peek inside of a running diesel engine. I’m sure they was doing machine learning with it. How long or ever would that information trickle down into the hands of a small business owner?

supervel45 December 13th 2022, 10:33 am

jones wrote:Thank you for the links it took me a moment to go through them properly.

You should look again at the Autosport link. Did you catch the part of using depleted uranium in the radial aircraft engine mass balance in the 1950's? Look's like there maybe a few engineers in that thread?

supervel45 December 13th 2022, 10:50 am

jones wrote:After reading that article from Comp and thinking about the oval gears. I’m wondering if they are creating a frequency into the oil system via the guide/chain tensioners. Would be interesting to learn about the engineering behind that.

That's what I kinda of had in mind. I was thinking it had to do with the valve spring oscillations between cams, maybe that's the wrong word, in conjunction with the VVT loading and unloading and the chain tensioner and chain deflection. The phrase " torsional compliance" was mentioned also in the Auto Sport thread. It's very interesting but way above my brain power and education. In other words I don't know.

supervel45 December 13th 2022, 10:51 am

jones wrote:
supervel45 wrote:If they can ever get this right it will be nice, I guess. Have you looked into it much?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0

I haven’t read anything lately on it. That is certainly a company that I would love to be a part of!

I suspect that line is very long.

supervel45 December 13th 2022, 11:01 am

jones wrote:
supervel45 wrote:
I am not into all the computer design stuff, although I do find it interesting from a layman's prospective. Did you look into the HOOPS by chance?

I would also suspect the good stuff is held back by the big manufacturer's for their top engineering teams.

https://www.techsoft3d.com/products/hoops/native-platform/?utm_term=%2B3d%20%2Bgraphics%20%2Bengine&utm_campaign=Visualize&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_tgt=kwd-390687040293&hsa_grp=56819642313&hsa_src=g&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_mt=b&hsa_ver=3&hsa_ad=519378441982&hsa_acc=8474814889&hsa_kw=%2B3d%20%2Bgraphics%20%2Bengine&hsa_cam=1403503135&gclid=CjwKCAiA-dCcBhBQEiwAeWidtWdDYG0azaRDk-P8dvBBTH0Kf-MNs-6ZvN1HZPWT8AddtzBraq7iBhoC0coQAvD_BwE

Yes Nasa and Skunk Works as well as Formula 1, a small company or individual will never know or have the most up to date software. It would be need to know, contract only in parcels for protection.

They are going to be using AI to help decide legal cases soon. I am sure it's already doing the other stuff somewhere.

The problem with some of these software is it takes an entire team just to setup the tools inside the software. I used “Tekla” to model Pre-Engineered steel buildings. It took a team of people just to develop the tools we used to run the software. Even then the Engineers had to run a different software for the finite processing for wind loads / earthquake code compliance.
I hope that AI can one day help minimize the all the cobbling together of software it takes.

In my mind it’s should be easy. If you know the shape, material and atmosphere effecting the part it should give you a great starting point.

I saw NASA was using a nuclear reactor to peek inside of a running diesel engine. I’m sure they was doing machine learning with it. How long or ever would that information trickle down into the hands of a small business owner?

supervel45 December 20th 2022, 5:38 pm

jones wrote:
supervel45 wrote:
I am not into all the computer design stuff, although I do find it interesting from a layman's prospective. Did you look into the HOOPS by chance?

I would also suspect the good stuff is held back by the big manufacturer's for their top engineering teams.

https://www.techsoft3d.com/products/hoops/native-platform/?utm_term=%2B3d%20%2Bgraphics%20%2Bengine&utm_campaign=Visualize&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_tgt=kwd-390687040293&hsa_grp=56819642313&hsa_src=g&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_mt=b&hsa_ver=3&hsa_ad=519378441982&hsa_acc=8474814889&hsa_kw=%2B3d%20%2Bgraphics%20%2Bengine&hsa_cam=1403503135&gclid=CjwKCAiA-dCcBhBQEiwAeWidtWdDYG0azaRDk-P8dvBBTH0Kf-MNs-6ZvN1HZPWT8AddtzBraq7iBhoC0coQAvD_BwE

The problem with some of these software is it takes an entire team just to setup the tools inside the software. I used “Tekla” to model Pre-Engineered steel buildings. It took a team of people just to develop the tools we used to run the software. Even then the Engineers had to run a different software for the finite processing for wind loads / earthquake code compliance.
I hope that AI can one day help minimize the all the cobbling together of software it takes.

In my mind it’s should be easy. If you know the shape, material and atmosphere effecting the part it should give you a great starting point.

I saw NASA was using a nuclear reactor to peek inside of a running diesel engine. I’m sure they was doing machine learning with it. How long or ever would that information trickle down into the hands of a small business owner?

It's Almost Here Supposedly.

https://www.science.org/content/article/ai-learns-write-computer-code-stunning-advance

jones December 23rd 2022, 10:57 am

I think a lot of these AI headlines are misleading to a degree. If I had to guess it’s a lot like some of these CAD programs writeing CNC code. Hundreds if not thousands of unnecessary lines that could be simplified, making it a minefield.
Computers are supposed to be able to repeat code without error but reality with todays hardware is that it’s prone to processing errors. Mainly from interference, (circuitry design, higher frequency’s, dirty power and RF.) Then you have people that aren’t as knowledgeable in precursors which over time flaws the process / product.

supervel45 December 23rd 2022, 5:28 pm

I would agree. I would also add that it is likely the more they hype it, the more money they can take in from grants and donations.

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Engine diagram / Valvetrain illustration software

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