Kaase on oil pressure problems

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More oil system woes

We have been dyno testing a 598” Boss 9 hemi, and seeing some strange oil system behavior.
Engine data:
4.6” x 4.5”
Our Boss 9 Hemi heads…. (The set from our 2009 Engine Masters 511” entry), Ported
Unported 4500 Kaase intake
1150 dominator carb, by Dale Cubic @ CMF
13 to 1
282-288, .457” lobe, 112 CL Comp Cam
Wet sump pan with our pump
Best power, 1100 HP @ 6900, 875 Ft/Lbs at 5500
This engine is built for a friend to take to Maxton, NC , for the 1 mile speed runs

This has been a great engine, except for the oil system. It has a Moroso road course oil pan. The pickup is ¾ toward the rear, in a 4” x 4” trapdoor box. There is directional screen over most of the bottom. The pan is mostly flat, front to rear, with a trapdoor divider half way back. During a dyno pull, it loses oil pressure, 5 to 10 lbs or more. We tried jacking up the front of the engine to help more oil get to the rear. We tried thinner oil, Mobil 1 0-W50. We tried more oil. Started with 8, then 10, then 12. Then I really got pissed and threw in another 4 Qt, total of 16. Didn’t hurt the power much, but didn’t help the loss of oil pressure. It would start at 60 psi, and go down to 48. When we ran it from 4500 rpm to 7000, the oil gauge would nose dive at 6500 and over. 6200 to 7000 and it still fell at 6500, 4000 to 7000 and it still fell fast over 6500. The length of the dyno run didn’t seem to matter, it was when it reached 6500 rpm and over that the oil pressure went to hell.
The block is aluminum, which has lower head oil drains, so the heads don’t hold much oil in the valve spring area. The lifter lines are restricted. We took it off the dyno and pulled the pan. Bearings were OK.
Because we needed to know whether the problem was the pump or the short block, or the pan, we decided to change pans to my EngineMasters pan and pickup. It’s a 12” deep front sump with no baffles or screens or covers anywhere. Just a big, deep, open pan.
Well, we ran it today, and it was perfect. Even when the oil was hot. It started at 72 psi and would gain a pound or two at 7000. The pressure gauge was perfectly steady, where with the other pan it would bounce a little. We only had 7 qts of oil in the pan!
So, the oil pressure problem was obviously the oil pan. I think most people would have blamed the pump. I had my doubts about it. Now we have to figure out what’s happening in the customer’s pan and fix it. There is a square hole in the screen for the pickup to fit through when the pan is installed. I think maybe all the windage and pulses from the pistons above are disrupting the oil around the pickup.
Next week we’ll work on the pan, and I’ll post some pictures and dyno sheets here.... Kaase

Very interesting, and this is on a stationary engine!! It makes you wonder what would have happened in a real world situation (road race) like it is intended.

Great info!!

Bill

try it without the screen? this is dumb i guess but i'll throw it out here,i just put in one of those plastic sink deals in my shop,the one's from lowes.it's a utility sink,real big & deep,it was very slow to drain out and it should'nt be with the big drain i have on it.it had a little round disc that pushed in the drain with holes on it,about a dozen 3/16 holes.with the water standing in the sink you can see the water kinda dripping through the holes so i pulled it out and it took off.that's not anywhere near the same thing but me not being a plumber kinda felt like i learned something new for the day.

Typicial.......if race cars were not race cars we could get a real oil pan in them. It is what it is short of a dry sump.

Jon,

I had responed to your thread on the other site , but i was also wondering if you would design the pan differently for a salt flats/ standing mile car then you would for a drag car ? i would assume there would be more intial g's on a drag vehicle persay then a standing mile car ...... also would you do any oiling mods (to the block) differently for the different racing venues ?

cool stuff sir ..

Later Nick

I wonder if the road race pan 4x4 trap door box's relatively small volume could in effect be emptied faster than new oil can enter the box at the higher RPM's?

Jon I have seen this before and we found out a rear sump or full pan has to have a good windage tray full length to keep the crank from picking up oil and spinning it in the rotatiing assembly..... we found it wanted a metal tray with slats in it. some how the screen type kept trying to pick up oil thru the screen....

This may not be your problem but it might give you a place to look.....


Good Luck and let us know what you find.....
Randy

Thanks Jon. As always, the information you offer is appreciated and very useful. Regardless how you present it, posted or in person.

Dave.

LivermoreDave wrote:Thanks Jon. As always, the information you offer is appreciated and very useful. Regardless how you present it, posted or in person.

Dave.

X2

Jon, I'm sure you have already thought about this, but it was my first thought. Open the trap doors and secure them so they will stay open during pulls. W/enging being stationary the oil is trapped from returning to the rear of the pan.

DILLIGASDAVE wrote:I wonder if the road race pan 4x4 trap door box's relatively small volume could in effect be emptied faster than new oil can enter the box at the higher RPM's?

good call . removel of that section and retest

What about trying a accusump system and 7 qt in the pan, I'm thinking a previous poster may be on to something with the trap doors not allowing sufficient quantity to the pick-up or may be one is too close to the pickup and causing some kind of cavitation or aeroation? Might try removing the trap door stuff to.

I have seen what Jon is speaking of in terms of the oil pressure moving around on other brands of engines also. In those cases, reworking the windage trays and windage screens solved the problems. The oil in the area of the pick-up has to be shielded from the windage above it.

Charlie

jonkaase wrote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More oil system woes

We have been dyno testing a 598” Boss 9 hemi, and seeing some strange oil system behavior.
Engine data:
4.6” x 4.5”
Our Boss 9 Hemi heads…. (The set from our 2009 Engine Masters 511” entry), Ported
Unported 4500 Kaase intake
1150 dominator carb, by Dale Cubic @ CMF
13 to 1
282-288, .457” lobe, 112 CL Comp Cam
Wet sump pan with our pump
Best power, 1100 HP @ 6900, 875 Ft/Lbs at 5500
This engine is built for a friend to take to Maxton, NC , for the 1 mile speed runs

This has been a great engine, except for the oil system. It has a Moroso road course oil pan. The pickup is ¾ toward the rear, in a 4” x 4” trapdoor box. There is directional screen over most of the bottom. The pan is mostly flat, front to rear, with a trapdoor divider half way back. During a dyno pull, it loses oil pressure, 5 to 10 lbs or more. We tried jacking up the front of the engine to help more oil get to the rear. We tried thinner oil, Mobil 1 0-W50. We tried more oil. Started with 8, then 10, then 12. Then I really got pissed and threw in another 4 Qt, total of 16. Didn’t hurt the power much, but didn’t help the loss of oil pressure. It would start at 60 psi, and go down to 48. When we ran it from 4500 rpm to 7000, the oil gauge would nose dive at 6500 and over. 6200 to 7000 and it still fell at 6500, 4000 to 7000 and it still fell fast over 6500. The length of the dyno run didn’t seem to matter, it was when it reached 6500 rpm and over that the oil pressure went to hell.
The block is aluminum, which has lower head oil drains, so the heads don’t hold much oil in the valve spring area. The lifter lines are restricted. We took it off the dyno and pulled the pan. Bearings were OK.
Because we needed to know whether the problem was the pump or the short block, or the pan, we decided to change pans to my EngineMasters pan and pickup. It’s a 12” deep front sump with no baffles or screens or covers anywhere. Just a big, deep, open pan.
Well, we ran it today, and it was perfect. Even when the oil was hot. It started at 72 psi and would gain a pound or two at 7000. The pressure gauge was perfectly steady, where with the other pan it would bounce a little. We only had 7 qts of oil in the pan!
So, the oil pressure problem was obviously the oil pan. I think most people would have blamed the pump. I had my doubts about it. Now we have to figure out what’s happening in the customer’s pan and fix it. There is a square hole in the screen for the pickup to fit through when the pan is installed. I think maybe all the windage and pulses from the pistons above are disrupting the oil around the pickup.
Next week we’ll work on the pan, and I’ll post some pictures and dyno sheets here.... Kaase

Jon, your oil pressure is dropping above 6500 rpm. I say two potential issues to address: 1) windage (try more solid coverarge rather than just a screen in this case), and, 2) what is the diameter of that rear sump pickup tube?

I see too many rear sump setups that us the same OD pickup tube as a front sump setup. For a given tube diameter, the further from the pump the pickup strainer is, the more effort is required of the pump to pull a column of oil. Also a bigger tube actually reduces pump drag...but note that pickup tube sizing is important and that there is also such a thing as too big. Like everything else, it's a balancing act.

Paul

this isn't an oil pressure moving around concern here. Last summer I lost a roller lifter and had to tear the motor down. during the reassembly the old canton box style pan cracked. Now big deal I just ordered a new one. well I discovered they had made some changes to this pan and
1) it no longer use the front sump oil pump that is angled.
2)it no longer has the tray in the pan
3)you have to purchase the windage tray which mounts to the block
Well being in a little bit of a jam I got the right pump and pick up but didn't get the windage tray. put the car together and made 15-20 passes and this thing is .3th slower and doesn't want to build rpm nearly as fast.

So Over the winter I installed the windage tray( fits like sh*t). Had to make several changes to it to make it fit. And the pick up tube bracket has the tube so close to the mounting bolt /stud you cant even put the nut on. I'm looking to test real soon to see if anything changes.

The old pan had a aluminum windage tray in it that looked home made. I sent pictures to Canton and also called them and they would never call me back.

So I think oil pan are alway worth something in E.T. department. Last I have always run an accu-sump

Ace

I'm thinking the 4 x 4 trapdoor box is getting sucked clean and therefore cavitating the pump due to the introduction of oil/air once it is sucked clean...


Could be worse... We wiped a turbo on a 9 cyl Wartsila diesel at work today. That and we lifted a head too. So all in all it was a bad seatrial!

I had issues with my build when I first got it going. 545ci with a Canton front sump 8 qt drag pan, matching pickup, and a new Melling HV shimmed pump. Oil pressure on startup was 75lbs. Hot idle at 1500rpms was 35. On a pass it would rise to 75lbs then flutter around a bit gradually falling off. It would come back slowly on the return road.

I pulled the pan several times, checking bearing conditions, bearing clearances again & again... stepped up to a Kaase pump. That solved most of it. I ended up drilling 4 1/2" holed in the solid windage tray built into my pan to let the oil drain down into the sump area without having to rain down only around the pickup. That completely solved it.

Most of the fast salt flat and standing mile cars run dry sumps!