Titanium Valves

jones June 22nd 2010, 10:07 pm

Teach me something

I was reading an artical by a well known engine builder and he was suggesting titanium valves for street engine build. He referanced the new factory engines that run titanium and how the factory isn't affraid of warranting the engines for 100,000 miles. He also mention by running titanuim you would save cost in the long run to off set the inital cost.
Is there differance material that you would use for a street build over the valves I read about being used in the engines that some of you use for race engine builds? How does factory get around the wear problems that some engines experiance, is it a quality control issue?

Nevs June 22nd 2010, 10:52 pm

Sounds like you read David Rehers article in ND. Good read.....

jones June 22nd 2010, 10:56 pm

Yup, here it is .
http://www.rehermorrison.com/blog/?p=517

March 10, 2010
Tech Talk #76- The Titanium Solution
Category: Tech Talk —
The same properties that made titanium the metal of choice for nuclear submarines and high-altitude spy planes during the Cold War also make titanium an ideal material for engine valves. Depending on its alloy, titanium is 45 percent lighter than steel and twice as strong as 6061-T6 aluminum. Replacing steel valves with titanium is simply the best way to improve a racing engine.

Titanium was once regarded as a state secret by the Russians and classified as a strategic material by the U.S. government. Commercial development of titanium has made this amazing metal both more affordable and more widely available. Today it’s commonly used in products ranging from tennis rackets to mountain bikes. Compared to the cost of steel valves, a set of titanium valves for a big-block Chevy V8 is an upgrade of approximately $1500. Yes, that is a big-ticket item, but the benefits of titanium valves more than justify the additional expense.

Reducing valve weight has a tremendous impact on an engine’s reliability, longevity, and performance. When we test a sportsman engine on the dyno, I can literally hear the difference between steel and titanium valves – an engine with titanium valves accelerates more smoothly, the result of the valve springs’ ability to keep the valvetrain under control.

Here are the numbers: A typical 2.300-inch diameter steel intake valve with an 11/32-inch stem for a conventional big-block Chevrolet weighs 142 grams. A titanium replacement with the same head diameter and stem diameters weighs about 90 grams. (Differences in the margin thickness and head shape account for the fact that the titanium valve is slightly more than 60 percent of the weight of the steel valve.) Now consider that loads increase exponentially with rpm: Double the engine speed and the forces are quadrupled. The 52-gram reduction in static valve weight offered by titanium becomes much greater when the valve is opening and closing thousands of times every minute. Consequently the valve spring can control the valve motion more accurately in a dynamic state.

The effects of reducing valve weight become apparent throughout the engine. Valve springs last longer, and lifters are more reliable. When we overhaul an engine with titanium valves, the guides and seats invariably look better than comparable parts in a steel-valve motor. The benefits of lightweight valves are even visible in less wear and tear on the camshaft drive, whether it’s a chain, belt, or gears.

The usual motivation for installing titanium valves is to increase maximum rpm. More than 30 years ago, when we put a set of titanium valves in a 287-cubic-inch Modified Production small-block, the elapsed time immediately dropped two tenths of a second. It was a revelation then, and the same technology still works today. Swap the steel valves in one of our Reher-Morrison Super Series sportsman big-blocks to titanium and the peak engine speed will increase instantly by 400-500 rpm with no other changes.

However, the key point for a sportsman racer is that it’s not necessary to turn the engine faster to realize the benefits of titanium valves. By maintaining the same redline as with steel valves, an engine with titanium valves will operate with less stress, less wear, and better reliability over the long haul.

Many sportsman racers regard titanium valves as an expensive luxury, but I think titanium is a good investment. As consumers, we often focus on the sticker price, not the overall cost of ownership. I’m reminded of that fact every time I take the lowest bid on a home repair, and then live to regret my decision. If I’d considered quality as well as price, I would be better off in the long run.

Another myth is that titanium valves aren’t durable. I remind racers that the production Corvette Z06 and ZR1 have titanium valves, as do several other high-end sports cars. If Chevrolet is willing to put a warranty on a street motor that’s designed to last 100,000 miles with titanium valves, I don’t think that racers need to worry about the longevity of titanium valves. If I had a hot street motor, I’d run titanium valves without hesitation.

As with most products, there are differences in the quality of titanium valves on the market. Without going into specifics, I’ll just note that you usually get what you pay for. It’s my strong belief that valves are not the place to try to save a few dollars in a racing engine.

My philosophy of engine building is always to try to make the product better. I’ve written previously about the improvements we’ve made in wet-sump oiling systems, and I’ve made the decision to put bronze lifter bushings in all of our racing engines because it’s the right thing to do. I know that titanium valves aren’t the answer for every drag racer, but when I know in my heart that a part is better, I certainly hope to see it widely used

LivermoreDave June 22nd 2010, 11:02 pm

Taking a chance of NOT sounding too stupid, I think the environment of a "race" engine and a "street" engine would each have very different set of specs as how the valves are shall we say exploited! Components that make direct contact with the TI probably is friendly. Valve seat angles may also be less aggressive and the camshaft's lobe may allow the valve and seat to touch softly!

Just my $0.02 worth of B.S.
Dave.

dfree383 June 23rd 2010, 9:04 am

To expensive for the limited return on most builds. The material may be sutable but the cost is isn't.

jones June 23rd 2010, 9:12 am

That's why I wonder what is he talking about when you could see cost savings down the road? Is he saying that compared to a SS valve setup you could recoup the money in valvesprings and lifters alone?

PS this thread isn't to knock anyone, just trying to understand. If you don't agree do it in a civil manner by explaing your view.

dfree383 June 23rd 2010, 11:21 am

If you intend to build a motor and keep if forever, and use it a bunch, I can see what he's saying and agree with him. If you have the money its a good choice, but if it means skimping out on other more critical parts to afford them, I'd think long and hard.

If your a hobby / casual bracket racer, with a realistic RPM range and Cam Lift, it will take a long time to recoup the money. Guys have been running SS Valves for Decades with out any problems.

Darin January 20th 2011, 1:52 pm

dfree383 wrote:If you intend to build a motor and keep if forever, and use it a bunch, I can see what he's saying and agree with him. If you have the money its a good choice, but if it means skimping out on other more critical parts to afford them, I'd think long and hard.

If your a hobby / casual bracket racer, with a realistic RPM range and Cam Lift, it will take a long time to recoup the money. Guys have been running SS Valves for Decades with out any problems.

I feel your statement,"Guys have been running SS Valves for Decades with out any problems." is in error. It all depends on what you call a problem. The problems I see are increased spring wear, fatigue and valve train fatigue caused by valve train float. racers have no idea how bad the valve train is out of control past 7000rpm. You install Ti valves in any engine that exceeds 7000rpm and you will get a 30 to 45hp gain all the way to 8000rpm. Ti valves make the valve train smooth and increase power by decreasing valve bounce and float. This will decrease your valve train problems TEN FOLD! How much money is spend ( wasted) by having to replace springs, lifters and rockers and other valve train components. Point in case, I just receive in a set of Dart 355 Pro1 heads from a racer that put hundreds and hundreds of runs (he said 580 runs) on them over ten years. I will do a valve job on these heads, replace the Ti valves and send him on his way. He might go for another ten years. That cant happen with steal valves that bounce and hammer the seats, lifters, rockers and push rods.

Its false economy to believe that steal valves are the answer in an engine that routinely exceeds 7000rpm.

Just an opinion from a guy who sees valve train destruction on a daily basis.

richter69 January 20th 2011, 2:00 pm

You can buy a shyt load of stainless valves and springs for what the tit valves cost lol.

Darin January 20th 2011, 2:06 pm

richter69 wrote:You can buy a shyt load of stainless valves and springs for what the tit valves cost lol.

I agree but every one looks at the cost of acquisition instead of the cost per run. We do cost analysis studies on how long the engine last and what the cost of each run will be for the customer. Ti valves are cheaper in the long run. You can spend $1500 now and get Ti valves and it will save you three time that in the long run.

The cost per run is far more important than the initial cost of acquisition.

dfree383 January 20th 2011, 2:19 pm

If your selling TI Valves its good for business........

What RPM does a typical bracket built 460 Ford peak at?

richter69 January 20th 2011, 2:23 pm

Darin wrote:
richter69 wrote:You can buy a shyt load of stainless valves and springs for what the tit valves cost lol.

I agree but every one looks at the cost of acquisition instead of the cost per run. We do cost analysis studies on how long the engine last and what the cost of each run will be for the customer. Ti valves are cheaper in the long run. You can spend $1500 now and get Ti valves and it will save you three time that in the long run.

The cost per run is far more important than the initial cost of acquisition.

I already have titanium valves....................and John Holmes pushrods.............. Wink

95% of the builds on here do not "have" or "need" to have them.............the money cant be spent in better places IMO.

342g January 20th 2011, 2:41 pm

richter69 wrote:
Darin wrote:
richter69 wrote:You can buy a shyt load of stainless valves and springs for what the tit valves cost lol.

I agree but every one looks at the cost of acquisition instead of the cost per run. We do cost analysis studies on how long the engine last and what the cost of each run will be for the customer. Ti valves are cheaper in the long run. You can spend $1500 now and get Ti valves and it will save you three time that in the long run.

The cost per run is far more important than the initial cost of acquisition.

I already have titanium valves....................and John Holmes pushrods..............

95% of the builds on here do not "have" or "need" to have them.............the money cant be spent in better places IMO.

So you think you should have them.

majik455 January 20th 2011, 4:18 pm

Most "street" engine do not see north of 6500 -7000 rpm. Now if its a race car or drag striper go for it, but I thought the article was called and based on a "street" use? They are used in sportbikes and they hit WAY over 8000 rpm, thats fun Very Happy

c.evans January 20th 2011, 7:44 pm

Guys,

At the last couple of Winter Tech Seminars, we've heard from our guest speakers such as Jeff Jones and Darin Morgan who have both talked about the positive benefits of running titanium valves. Jeff discussed at length during our 2009 seminar about how CRN (Chromium Nitride) coating, or DLC (diamond like carbon) coating, or TiAlN (Titanium Aluminum Nitride) coating,,,, greatly extends the lifespan of titanium valves. Maybe that's what the factories are doing nowadays on their high end engines.

In racing applications we are seeing the benefits of steeper angle valve jobs, when done in conjunction with correctly shaped chambers. The steeper angle valve job tends to load the contact surface (seat) of the valve a little more than the typical 45* valve job. So therefore we need to protect it via coating. Also the seat material needs to be compatible with titanium valves because titanium in and of itself is not a good wear surface. Thus the seat surface of the valves are coated with the above mentioned coatings. Just like with titanium wrist pins, where they are generally Casidiam coated.

Unfortunately I just got done repairing a set of A-460 style IDT Eliminator heads for a friend and customer, but they had a 2.425" stainless steel intake valve which weighs 178.5 grams. Those are heavy valves IMO and like Darin said that engine should not be run over 7000 rpm. The "compensation" for those with heavy valves is to run a BIG triple valve spring, (which these heads had on them), in an effort to control the valve train.

Sir Issac Newtons Second Law of Motion is in effect here. The formula is known as F=ma, and his law describes how an object changes it's motion when a force is applied to it. The change of motion depends on the magnitude of the force and the mass of the object. A heavier object (valve in this case) will change it's motion less under a given applied force than an object of lighter weight. So like what Darin was alluding to, in an engine with heavy valves we tend to see greater pushrod flex, greater wear on the valve guides and the tips of the valves from floating, roller lifters spreading at the feet, and greater rocker arm deflection.

I understand about the cost and my thougts are as follows for our BB Ford heads;

1. Mild OEM style heads can get by with stainless steel valves, but at least use titanium retainers. Having said that, I am very glad the Randy Moore and Jon Faubion both have titanium intake valves in their P-51 heads. I wish some of my other guys that are hard core racers had them also.
2. In A-460 style heads, if you can afford titanium valves then use them. In Krisse Lawyers 598 A-460 headed engine I use titanium intake valves and stainless steel exhaust valves. It's a lease engine.
3. In C-460 heads I always highly recommend a full set of titanium valves. Some I have done half and half, and there have only been two sets out of 44 sets of C-460 heads that I have done with stainless steel intake valves. That was against my suggeston.
4. In Pro-Filer 205 and Thor heads, by all means use a full set of titanium valves and don't even call me to do your heads if you aren't planning on using a full set.

Hope this helps,

Uncle Charlie

bruno January 20th 2011, 7:57 pm

Charlie,

would my edelbrock deal have benefited using Titanium valves ?

thanks Nick

richter69 January 20th 2011, 8:02 pm

I just did the intakes, valve size and rpm is what made my decision, and honestly I was right on the fence about it. If I had a 1000 bucks to spend and I didnt already have a Danny Bee, A460 block, forged crank, kick ass oil pan and pump etc I would have not spent it on the ti valves.

Lem Evans January 20th 2011, 8:58 pm

Nick, Given the power band of your package [and most other CJ engines] I'd think the use of Ti valves would be of marginal value. I.M.O. the $s would be better spent on a set of higher developed castings.

c.evans January 20th 2011, 9:08 pm

bruno wrote:Charlie,

would my edelbrock deal have benefited using Titanium valves ?

thanks Nick

Nick,

Sure they would have, to some degree. Your intake valve is a 2.250" with a 5.265" long stem and weighs 139 grams. It kind of depends on how much real time your engine spends above 7000 rpm, as Darin has already said. In other words if you are running 1/8th mile races, then your valvetrain doesn't spend as much time above 7000 rpm as it does when you are running 1/4 mile races.

I have seen a pulling truck engine go into severe valve float on the dyno at around 7100-7200 rpm with a stainless steel valve and the horspower took a nose dive. When we pointed that out to the engine builder, then he called Manley and got some titanium intake valves and it made a world of difference. The engine had the EX-514 cast iron heads (rules) and the intake valve he had weighed 168.5 grams. The new Manley's weighed around 110 grams.

I am working on a rare set of Blue Thunder cast iron CJ heads for a puller right now. They have titanium intake valves and stainless steel exhaust valves. If he could afford titanium exhaust valves he should be running them too, but he can't. Because the pulling truck guys spin their engines to 8500 rpm or more, IMO titanium valves is automatically manditory for them.

Nick, getting back to your heads. You presently have Edelbrocks on the car, but you have a set of FRPP C-460 heads setting on the shelf in the garage. Before I spent anymore money on the Eddys, I would switch to the C-460 heads which are a huge upgrade. Then be prepared to buy a full set of titanium valves for them. That is an appropriate combo.

Hope this helps,

Uncle Charlie

Lem Evans January 20th 2011, 11:55 pm

My bad.........Nick I did not know you have a pulling truck Rolling Eyes

.

342g January 21st 2011, 12:01 am

Lem Evans wrote:My bad.........Nick I did not know you have a pulling truck .

bruno January 26th 2011, 11:15 pm

Lem Evans wrote:My bad.........Nick I did not know you have a pulling truck .

damn i miss all the fun stuff Razz

D-CEL April 25th 2011, 4:36 pm

Does anybody know how the Ti valves are being made? Are they being hogged out of billet? Or are they forged? Spun?

Im thinking about having a new process tried maybe lower the cost...a bunch..

Jason

dfree383 April 25th 2011, 4:43 pm

I believe they are forged into blanks then machined.

Problem is Cost of Material, not the manufacture Process IMO

rmcomprandy April 25th 2011, 6:10 pm

I think you guys don't understand the automobile manufacturers criteria ... "adequate" as opposed to what is "best" is the target they shoot for.

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