Starting to plan for the future

OK as most of you know I am a Mud racer in the super stock class around here which requires I run an iron block and iron heads with a maximum 600 cid. I currently have a 495 cid dove A block with iron cj heads making 750hp and 650 tq. I am currently doing well in my class but it is getting tougher so I am starting to plan my next engine and would like some help/advise from you guys. I am considering going to the A block with the ex-514 iron heads or possibly putting port plates on my cj heads. I was thinking of copying Bruno's and Ky Jelly's combo of 562 cid (4.560 bore x 4.300 stroke). Some question I have are 1.With the ex heads would I need to run titanium valves? 2. With these heads will I have a large enough bore to eliminate most of the valve shrouding in the cylinder? 3. What flow numbers are possible from the iron ex heads? 4. What kind of approx HP and torque should be possible with this type of combo? 5. Should I scrap the ex head idea and stay with my iron cj’s?

If your buying all new stuff do a 598 (4.5x4.6 bore), the a460 block will get you their and offer you a number of rebuilds.

If you have the budget the ex514's are definetly the head of choice for your rules. You don't need the run TI valves but the are a good option it you have the $$$

Not a cheap engine, but you'll give the chevy guys fits! Properly built you should push 1000-1100 hp

After some discussions with the "big guy", this is my limited knowlege of the EX heads. There seems to be an issue with the coolant passage that is able to be addressed by a little drilling. The heads professinally prepared are capable of over 900hp, and the Ti stuff is recommended for weight savings on at least the intakes, and the ex will benifit as well depending on the ramp angles of the cam profile. IMHO there is quite a bit to be had in your CJ heads if you were to send them to a professional porter like Scotty J, Bret P, or C. Evans. There is more to be gained just with the larger CI for the TQ rather than just HP. More TQ faster out of the hole and down the track.

dfree I knid of want to stay with a shorter stroke to limit some of the torque taking off in mud is interesting at times so a motor with massive amounts of torque can be a hassle to get hooked up and flying since I cant run cut tires. The track I typically run everyone runs the same track so it will dig down to a hard pan and then it gets slick and you are not trying to move large amounts of gunk with the tires.

Schmitty I have had my heads ported by a professional and he got really good numbers out of them I moved this year so I no longer have the flow sheets and again i know everyone seems to want massive amounts of torque in a mud truck but in the pits i run i am not sure this is the best deal.

I have seen some slick tracks that are exactly like you are talking about. Do you have vac rules? If not then maybe a cam swap could be the ticket for more HP. I would venture a guess that if your heads are max ported they should be able to get closer to 800+HP. Blake ran some DOOE's this last week and they had to be putting down that much to make the times his car ran. I'd think if you wanted to keep the TQ down and the HP up, smaller CI is the way to go, but gearing will be more critical. What size tire do you run?

lghting94 wrote:The track I typically run everyone runs the same track so it will dig down to a hard pan and then it gets slick and you are not trying to move large amounts of gunk with the tires.

I don't know much about mud racing, just thinking (or typing) out loud!!

So do you need more wheel speed to get through the slick cream on top? If so, myabe you could run bigger torque with taller gears - high wheel speed and could keep the engine speed lower.

Bill

Schmitty My truck is a 1979 full bodied f-150 shortbed stepside(no gutting allowed) with a highly modified stock type suspension(rules require stock type suspension no 4-links or floating rears), I have a 9 inch rear and d-44 front with r-85 buckshot wide mudders(7 inches wide) up front and 38.5x11 boggers on the rear(also have run 38.5x15 boggers on the rear). Gearing I have run all options from 3.00 to 4.56 front and rear with and without split ratios. I currently run a 205 transfer but have run a 1356 out of a diesel. My horsepower when the motor was new topped out at 760 but this past winter made some changes to cam timing and tried different rocker ratios and I increased my torque from 630 to 650 but horsepower was down a little at peak(did not replace rings or bearings as leakdown was good and bearings looked new). I thought a bigger cam would help thus trying the larger ratio rockers but they actually hurt my power and torque so they didn’t stay. The cam is a custom cam from Cam Research. I have always thought that I didn’t need a monster engine to be competitive and have done really well with my smaller motor but as I stated its getting tougher and I want to be prepared for upcoming years.

Billandlori Your thinking(typing) out loud is exactly what I am thinking a bigger motor to be able to run more wheel speed with a higher ratio but I still have to get the truck hooked up some otherwise I sit still spinning the wheels and turning to many rpms with the motor with no load.

What is the result of running the skinny boggers up front and the 15 wide boggers in the rear? There are a few guys around here that are running this combo and having pretty decent results. I am convinced that my truck des as well as it does against the competition in the higher classes on the merits of the converter I got from ole Fabio. The UCC converter just does something that is hard to explain, good hole shot on both tight and loose tracks. I am running against guys with a lot more motor than I have right now as I'm still running a sportsman motor pulling 18" of vac vs. the guys who are SS class 14" vac and bigger tires. Last race I did was a times race and in Mod there was a .25 sec spread between first and third, and I got third. That could be just the guys running the stop watch's reaction time theoretically. I really think more CI won't hurt anything, it's just how much more will work effectively.

Here is a copy of the rule I have:
SUPER STOCK

1. Tires: any size DOT (no cuts).
2. Body: factory body and frame, front fenders may be cut no more that 3” to get clearance
of tires. Absolutely no altering or gutting in any other form. Nets can be used in place of
tailgate.
3. Engine: no engine swaps. No aluminum blocks or heads. Aftermarket heads allowed.
Replacement after market block allowed. 600 cubic inch limit. We do have pump to test it. Up
right or down draft headers are okay.
4. Carburetor: single carburetor, no nitrous or alcohol mixes.
5. Suspension: stock lift kits, traction bars, and factory bars allowed.
6. Gas tanks: stock tank in stock location or fuel cell in bed allowed.
7. Seats: seats will be in place, you may have a race seat, but you must have a passenger
seat in place.
8. Aluminum intakes are allowed.
9. Open and soft top vehicles must have roll bars.
10. All vehicles in this class will be considered “street legal”. All glass will be in place. Lights
will be operational. Wipers, fans, etc. will be in place, but do not have to operational.
11. Seat belts and helmets mandatory.
12. Safety: both general and safety rules will apply.
13. There will be no tracking in this class.
14. Each vehicle will have one race to conform to cosmetic rules.
15. Flat bed trucks will be allowed in this class, wooden or metal beds are allowed.

I've ran the wide bogger in back with buckshots up front and with the little boggers up front and it hooks the best with little boggers on the back and buckshots up front. with the way my suspension is set up the front tires do very little just skim the top of the ground clearing the ruts for the rear tires. Very few people around here run the 15 inch bogger in the back so the ruts are generally narrow and thus the big tires now have to cut a bigger rut. Also all the races i go to have a timer system we have been as close as .008 between the top five trucks at some tracks. .1 seconds behind and your not even close to the money around here. Just recently the 1st and 2nd place truck had a difference of .001 seconds.

I know you're stuck with the iron head with clemenstville, but build the 598 like the others said. The parts and machining will cost basically the same whether 562ci or 598ci. OR, what bore would you have to have with a 4.750" arm to be 600ci or under?

lghting94 wrote:OK as most of you know I am a Mud racer in the super stock class around here which requires I run an iron block and iron heads with a maximum 600 cid. I currently have a 495 cid dove A block with iron cj heads making 750hp and 650 tq. I am currently doing well in my class but it is getting tougher so I am starting to plan my next engine and would like some help/advise from you guys. I am considering going to the A block with the ex-514 iron heads or possibly putting port plates on my cj heads. I was thinking of copying Bruno's and Ky Jelly's combo of 562 cid (4.560 bore x 4.300 stroke). Some question I have are 1.With the ex heads would I need to run titanium valves? 2. With these heads will I have a large enough bore to eliminate most of the valve shrouding in the cylinder? 3. What flow numbers are possible from the iron ex heads? 4. What kind of approx HP and torque should be possible with this type of combo? 5. Should I scrap the ex head idea and stay with my iron cj’s?

The EX514 is a great head for the iron head rule, but like was said as of last castings it has some water passage issues. Charlie did a set for a friend of mine and they flowed close to the A head deal. That motor was a 572 and it made around 940hp.

Well the guy at flow technologies may have ended my thoughts of using the ex-514's. This is what he told me today a set of bare castings is $2500 (but he doesnt have any) this is no port work square exhaust seats so alot of work still to be done. Next he said i could get the stage 1 heads (basic valve job cleaning of ports approx 410 cfm intakes and 320 cfm exhausts) for $3500 or I can step up to the next level stage 3 with some portwork done for $4500. So you are looking at either $3500 or $4500 for head castings and you still have to buys valves and hardware.

simpleman I guess i need to call clementsville and start trying to get them to allow aluminum heads this rule is killing us ford guys. The BBC guys have several options with aftermarket iron heads that from what research I've done will flow close to a-460 with alot less cost.

At one time I think the iron head rules were used to try and keep the classes somewhat affordable. I think it does just the opposite nowadays as per your call to flow technologies shows. If its in the budget get the good pieces bought now even if they are not going to be used to their fullest potential. If you keep at the mud you will want to eventually move up in class and run faster.

Well I cant see being able to put that amount in the budget just for heads so now i am curious about how much of an increase the port plates will make on the exhaust of iron cj heads? does anyone have some experience with this? flow number increases?

simpleman wrote:At one time I think the iron head rules were used to try and keep the classes somewhat affordable. I think it does just the opposite nowadays as per your call to flow technologies shows. If its in the budget get the good pieces bought now even if they are not going to be used to their fullest potential. If you keep at the mud you will want to eventually move up in class and run faster.

I agree, What they need to do to keep the little guy in the sport, is keep the iron head rule but make it not allowing aftermarket heads.JMO

bbf-falcon I do agree that that would help and I wouldn't have a problem then although the rule was change because even though they were winning the shiverlay guys were crying.