ladder bars with leaf springs questions...

hey guys what do i need to consider when building my own ladder bars for my truck? Is there a formula for hp/tq verus length of the bars? How do you determine correct length for a certain vehicle/combination? Or doesnt length matter a whole lot? I plan on using square tubing... Is one by one square big enough or should i use 1.25 by 1.25? what gauge/wall thickness? I plan to have them adjustable in length. I want to box in a area of my trucks frame to house a bushing to hold the adjustable link bar setup so i can avoid any ladder bar/leaf spring binding and give me vertical bar adjustment as well.... Any thoughts on any of my ideas welcome.... Good or bad

thanks

I was told once that ladder bars need to be 1/3 the length of the wheel base. Then I talked to Applied Racing Technology and they told me that was the old school way. With todays shocks and tires there is no need to go with such a long ladder bar.
I'm going to go traditional route and use a floater setup on the axle.

bluef100fe wrote:. Any thoughts on any of my ideas welcome.... Good or bad

thanks

Why re-invent the wheel when you can just buy a nice set of double adjustables with hardware and brackets that you know will work.

JMO4WIW.

Travis

jones wrote:I was told once that ladder bars need to be 1/3 the length of the wheel base. Then I talked to Applied Racing Technology and they told me that was the old school way. With todays shocks and tires there is no need to go with such a long ladder bar.
I'm going to go traditional route and use a floater setup on the axle.

Only problem with what ART said is not every car out there has the exact same at launch HP/TQ numbers to deal with.

True, the standard "off the shelf" ladder bar lengths can work great with a very large number of car combos out there. But there are defiantly a few real big power drag combos where a longer ladder bar than "normal" could be beneficial just from the longer (and therefore less violent) bar allowing a big power combo to work without having to run the shock extension valving adjusted so super tight.

The real reasons you don't see ladder bar makers offering tons & tons of different bar lengths is offering just one or two lengths is much easier on the fab shop & the inventory. And offering a number of longer bar lengths might not sell as well cuz longer bars can be harder to find room for on a number of cars.

TravisRice wrote:

bluef100fe wrote:. Any thoughts on any of my ideas welcome.... Good or bad

thanks

Why re-invent the wheel when you can just buy a nice set of double adjustables with hardware and brackets that you know will work.

JMO4WIW.

Travis

travis.... I always seem to do things the hard way. Hence trying to go fast with a FE engine instead of the much easier way of the 385 series. Are you saying i should buy some expensive shocks and buy the floater system jones is talking about? My truck seems to hook pretty decent right now with walmart shocks on the rear and comp engineering 90/10 shocks on the front. I'm most interested in getting the truck setup to control axle~spring wrap for when i decide to start using the transbrake. I would like to limit the chance of breakage as much as possible. I've launched the truck with the brake and two step at 2500 rpm with my street tires and the axle wrap wasnt pretty.... Anybody have any feed back on tubing sizes i listed?

I wonder if damon still has the video of my qualifying pass from the 2010 bash? I believe he was in the correct position behind the truck to get the suspension movement and tire rotation on video... Maybe there is more going on than i think? I will have to pm him and see if he could upload it for me.

bluef100fe wrote:

TravisRice wrote:

bluef100fe wrote:. Any thoughts on any of my ideas welcome.... Good or bad

thanks

Why re-invent the wheel when you can just buy a nice set of double adjustables with hardware and brackets that you know will work.

JMO4WIW.

Travis

travis.... I always seem to do things the hard way. Hence trying to go fast with a FE engine instead of the much easier way of the 385 series. Are you saying i should buy some expensive shocks and buy the floater system jones is talking about? My truck seems to hook pretty decent right now with walmart shocks on the rear and comp engineering 90/10 shocks on the front. I'm most interested in getting the truck setup to control axle~spring wrap for when i decide to start using the transbrake. I would like to limit the chance of breakage as much as possible. I've launched the truck with the brake and two step at 2500 rpm with my street tires and the axle wrap wasnt pretty.... Anybody have any feed back on tubing sizes i listed?

I was referring to the ladder bars theirself. I would think you would definatley want a adj ladder bar. JMO

I run the same truck as you are except mine is 4x4 and in mud. I installed a set of ladder bars and coil-over shocks earlier this fall. I called a local chassis shop and they ordered me a custom built set of ladder bars they are 50 inches long and are made heavy for my truck 3/4 heims everywhere and adjustable. All told I spent around $1500 for the bars, brackets, double adjustable QA1 shocks and springs. In my opinion you are better off to purchase a set already built because after adding up the cost to do everything myself I had more in materials than what I spent on the bars already built. Also I dont think square tube will hold up as well as round tube.

[quote="lghting94"]I run the same truck as you are except mine is 4x4 and in mud. I installed a set of ladder bars and coil-over shocks earlier this fall. I called a local chassis shop and they ordered me a custom built set of ladder bars they are 50 inches long and are made heavy for my truck 3/4 heims everywhere and adjustable. All told I spent around $1500 for the bars, brackets, double adjustable QA1 shocks and springs. In my opinion you are better off to purchase a set already built because after adding up the cost to do everything myself I had more in materials than what I spent on the bars already built. Also I dont think square tube will hold up as well as round tube.[/quote

So are you still using your leaf springs or are you completly relying on the the double adjustable coil over shocks to carry the rear weight of your truck? on a side note i think we might have met at the first winter tech seminar? I think you made the comment "I have the 4wd version of your truck"

[quote="DILLIGASDAVE"]

jones wrote:I was told once that ladder bars need to be 1/3 the length of the wheel base. Then I talked to Applied Racing Technology and they told me that was the old school way. With todays shocks and tires there is no need to go with such a long ladder bar.
I'm going to go traditional route and use a floater setup on the axle.

Only problem with what ART said is not every car out there has the exact same at launch HP/TQ numbers to deal with.

True, the standard "off the shelf" ladder bar lengths can work great with a very large number of car combos out there. But there are defiantly a few real big power drag combos where a longer ladder bar than "normal" could be beneficial just from the longer (and therefore less violent) bar allowing a big power combo to work without having to run the shock extension valving adjusted so super tight.

The real reasons you don't see ladder bar makers offering tons & tons of different bar lengths is offering just one or two lengths is much easier on the fab shop & the inventory. And offering a number of longer bar lengths might not sell as well cuz longer bars can be harder to find room for on a number of cars.

Dave, so in your opinion what length bars should I use? truck is around 4000 lbs and 45% of that is rear percentage weight. Probably 500hp/500 tq on new motor running a three speed with 2.76 first gear and 3.70's out back 29~10.5w tire

When I switched I removed the leafs completely. But the rules for my class are changing back so I hafta put leafs back under and have not decided how i am going to do that yet. With the QA1 coil overs and 225 lbs springs it holds the truck up very well but my truck is never on the road.

bluef100fe wrote:Dave, so in your opinion what length bars should I use?

Hard to say for sure.

Deciding the "best" bar length setup on most any stock body/chassis truck can be a challenge just because of their long/real long wheelbase, comparatively higher center of gravity, greater weight, & more engine forward placement vs wheelbase length than a lot of cars have.

I can see where looking at a longer bar (say a 36" bar vs the "normal" 32" bar) could be a usable starting point for a lot of trucks. But then I do tend to favor shooting for the calmer (and/or less violent) side of most any combo's suspension setup anyway. This is because a combo that can start out (and/or be adjusted) toward the "lazy" side at first offers the racer plenty of "room to grow" (suspension adjustment wise) if a car/truck gets more/bigger power in the future.

An example of a car that probably could have used a longer ladder bar is a full chassis nova I worked on years ago that ran 4.90's. It had standard length ladder bars & even with big tires, ladder bars in the bottom chassis bracket holes, shock valving cranked to almost full-tight, & real long wheelie bars, it was still enough on the violent side that you still had the let it wheelstand a bunch to get it to stay hooked during the launch without unloading. A longer ladder bar probably would have been a better choice in this situation........but a 4-link probably would have been the best choice.