Eliminator new heads

Im building a 632 N/A combo, and herd Eliminator has a new semi hemi head. Is this true and can anyone shed some light on flow numbers or picts? Thanks

This man paid for a set 22 months ago and hasn't gotten them yet. So a red flag maybe???
The thread is over on the old BB Ford site,,,,,http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152390

Charlie

I just wanted to reply to Charile's note. In the last 20 months we lost our two complete machining sources for cylinder heads. Both these sources were subjected to the difficult economy in Michigan and sold the assests of there business. This does not include our original machining source (ET Performance) that went out of business 3 years ago in the middle of finishing our casting tooling. We will have our second batch of cylinder heads (10) ready to go within two weeks. All that remains the are pushrod holes and the final finishing of chambers, intake and exhaust ports with seat / guide installation and machining. After the second batch of cylinder heads are completed; we will be working on batch number three which includes additional 1400 and 1600 series cylinder heads. The customer that Charile speaks of did order a set or heads along with many other components. He has recieved all the other components except for the cylinder head assemblies. My machine shop and I have expressed our regret for the delay and will be giving him a discount on the cylinder heads for his wait. There are batch one pictures on our facebook page. I will soon be posting batch two pictures (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Induction-Dynamics-Technology-Engineering-and-Racing/150867588310442). We apologies for all delays.

Thanks,

Jay

c.evans wrote:This man paid for a set 22 months ago and hasn't gotten them yet. So a red flag maybe???
The thread is over on the old BB Ford site,,,,,http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152390

Charlie

I bet if they were P51s, or a TFS product this post wouldn't have been made. JMHO.

Barney wrote:

c.evans wrote:This man paid for a set 22 months ago and hasn't gotten them yet. So a red flag maybe???
The thread is over on the old BB Ford site,,,,,http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152390

Charlie

I bet if they were P51s, or a TFS product this post wouldn't have been made. JMHO.

Well you would lose that bet. I just got back from church and the topic of the sermon was when Jesus became rightously indignant (angry) and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers in the temple. In other words he took a stand on an issue.

Anyone has a right to be upset over not getting racing heads that have already been paid for, after 22 months. Whether those heads be Edelbrocks, P-51s, TFS, FRPP, Pro-Filer or Thors. They would have a right to be upset with me or any other cylinder head guy. Harry Truman had the sign on his desk that said; "The buck stops here", and it does with whomever accepted the money for the heads. That's one big reason I do not accept pre-payment money from my customers if unfinished work is still to be done. You can ask Robert Snowball, Bob Curley, Keith White, Gary Heber, David Cole, Bobby Anthony and the list goes on. When I get the heads done, I ship them and call the customer and tell him what he owes me. Like I said, you'd lose that bet.

Charlie Evans

c.evans wrote:

Barney wrote:

c.evans wrote:This man paid for a set 22 months ago and hasn't gotten them yet. So a red flag maybe???
The thread is over on the old BB Ford site,,,,,http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152390

Charlie

I bet if they were P51s, or a TFS product this post wouldn't have been made. JMHO.

Well you would lose that bet. I just got back from church and the topic of the sermon was when Jesus became rightously indignant (angry) and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers in the temple. In other words he took a stand on an issue.

Anyone has a right to be upset over not getting racing heads that have already been paid for, after 22 months. Whether those heads be Edelbrocks, P-51s, TFS, FRPP, Pro-Filer or Thors. They would have a right to be upset with me or any other cylinder head guy. Harry Truman had the sign on his desk that said; "The buck stops here", and it does with whomever accepted the money for the heads. That's one big reason I do not accept pre-payment money from my customers if unfinished work is still to be done. You can ask Robert Snowball, Bob Curley, Keith White, Gary Heber, David Cole, Bobby Anthony and the list goes on. When I get the heads done, I ship them and call the customer and tell him what he owes me. Like I said, you'd lose that bet.



Charlie Evans

You can include me in your customer list as well Charlie. You've always been a straight shooter with me in my dealings with you. I would recommend you to anyone. Never been an issue in my dealings with you. I wish I could say that about everyone in the racing business!

Thank you Steve. I knew I could include you also.

Charlie

When someone is providing a product that no one else provides some are willing to wait, for a while. While this post could open one hell of a snowball with people outing companies. When i ordered my Hampton blower i was initially told a month, 4 months later i had the product. Hampton was a straight shooter with me on the phone and provided an update when i called. When i ordered my boss 9 heads from Kaase i dealt with the same deal. Again cliff and jon provided me with a straight answer when i called. I can say i am on charlies list of customers and he did an outstanding job and provided above the bar service. I don't mind waiting for a great product, but there is a point where you have to cut your losses and move on. If at say month 6 IDT couldn't provide me with an update that was a delivery in the next month or so i would have requested my money back and moved on. Jay has responded and it sounds like they have been dealing with suppliers having hard times in the economy, but i think they would understand if the customer wanted to move on else where. I don't care what company it is if i pay for a product and you don't deliver or are stalling with some bull$hit answers when i call for an update you deserve the rifle squad.

I recall several years ago a customer of place used to work. Had sent a set of D heads to a head porter in Florida. Took over two years and cost $5,000. In the he got what he paid for and more. Not everyone is a crook just because it takes a long time to get to the result.

I must say I can see a difference between IDT and Charlie Evans. If Charlie is buying a head from someone else. He can cancel the order if taking too long and put his customer in something else. If his customer brings him a set of head for work and they don't pay he keeps the heads and sells them to someone else. If Charlie pays for the heads and work the customer doesn't pay he is out his time, and whatever is invested in the heads, but likely will find another buyer that at a minimum will cover the out of pocket costs.

Now IDT is a manufacturer making low production specialty heads, heads with very limited application (i.e. customer base). Bears the cost of R&D, mfg., everything so in order to mfg. the heads takes customers money, then there are delays as outlined above, customer posts on a board "When I ever recieve the set I paid for 22 mounths ago I will be sure to post results from my 645ci build!!!!! ".

If I was Jay (and I am not) I'd stick to the more main stream stuff and the heck with the guys wanting the one off stuff as why take the business risk and have to deal with customers and others tarnishing your good name. I know of nobody else casting one off heads for the BBF. Over the years I have heard of IDT taking long times to deliever, but have yet to hear of IDT NOT delivering and in this case sounds like the customer has been advised of the delays.

c.evans wrote:

Barney wrote:

c.evans wrote:This man paid for a set 22 months ago and hasn't gotten them yet. So a red flag maybe???
The thread is over on the old BB Ford site,,,,,http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152390

Charlie

I bet if they were P51s, or a TFS product this post wouldn't have been made. JMHO.

Well you would lose that bet. I just got back from church and the topic of the sermon was when Jesus became rightously indignant (angry) and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers in the temple. In other words he took a stand on an issue.

Anyone has a right to be upset over not getting racing heads that have already been paid for, after 22 months. Whether those heads be Edelbrocks, P-51s, TFS, FRPP, Pro-Filer or Thors. They would have a right to be upset with me or any other cylinder head guy. Harry Truman had the sign on his desk that said; "The buck stops here", and it does with whomever accepted the money for the heads. That's one big reason I do not accept pre-payment money from my customers if unfinished work is still to be done. You can ask Robert Snowball, Bob Curley, Keith White, Gary Heber, David Cole, Bobby Anthony and the list goes on. When I get the heads done, I ship them and call the customer and tell him what he owes me. Like I said, you'd lose that bet.

Charlie Evans

That's noble of you I guess. With one off stuff you kind of expect some wait. Is 22 month excessive? Yes, but there's threads about Kaase wait time also, and I've had problems with TFS stuff at times, but still feel they are a good company and don't make a point to passively aggressively steer people away from their product. It's different to wait for payment on labor than a one off product that costs money to produce. I don't think anyone's questioning your customer service in the least, so for you to be on a soapbox in regards to it befuddles me slightly. It's a fact you do it for profit, it's also a fact you favor, or at least more commonly use products other than Eliminator products, so for you to immediately throw up a post siting " red flags", is if nothing else slightly suspect. no ones questioning you abilities, or level of services. Having been around a number of Eliminator products I will say to the OP that they are very good pieces, but aren't produced in the quantities that other comparable pieces are so the level of commonly shared information is limited because of the low market share they possess. The head in question is most definitely for a large CI max effort high RPM motor, one that would also require a cylinder head such as a Thor, Profiler, A441 caliber head.

466cj wrote:I recall several years ago a customer of place used to work. Had sent a set of D heads to a head porter in Florida. Took over two years and cost $5,000. In the he got what he paid for and more. Not everyone is a crook just because it takes a long time to get to the result.

I must say I can see a difference between IDT and Charlie Evans. If Charlie is buying a head from someone else. He can cancel the order if taking too long and put his customer in something else. If his customer brings him a set of head for work and they don't pay he keeps the heads and sells them to someone else. If Charlie pays for the heads and work the customer doesn't pay he is out his time, and whatever is invested in the heads, but likely will find another buyer that at a minimum will cover the out of pocket costs.

Now IDT is a manufacturer making low production specialty heads, heads with very limited application (i.e. customer base). Bears the cost of R&D, mfg., everything so in order to mfg. the heads takes customers money, then there are delays as outlined above, customer posts on a board "When I ever recieve the set I paid for 22 mounths ago I will be sure to post results from my 645ci build!!!!! ".

If I was Jay (and I am not) I'd stick to the more main stream stuff and the heck with the guys wanting the one off stuff as why take the business risk and have to deal with customers and others tarnishing your good name. I know of nobody else casting one off heads for the BBF. Over the years I have heard of IDT taking long times to deliever, but have yet to hear of IDT NOT delivering and in this case sounds like the customer has been advised of the delays.

I think the key thing to take out of this is as long as there is communication and both are on the same page it's a good business deal. You say you have heard of IDT having long lead times, but as far as you know has always delivered; while that is good to know doesn't matter much if the customer is being told two more weeks, two more weeks, two more weeks. Everyone has their breaking point and i'd say this customer reached theirs when they posted the comment. You also bring up a great point that IDT is one of the very few doing one off runs. It's completely possible IDT has told the customer every step of the way what was going on, but they simply got fed up of waiting. That's the great part of this site you have the vendors word and you have the customers word and it allows everyone to make their own conclusion on who they want to cough up the cash to.

at times the P51 heads are impossible to get.......along with his oil pumps..............

Personally I don't think Charlie was trying to throw Jay under the bus. He's was just stating that if you order them there may be a long wait, that way the OP could make an informed decision. Almost 2 years in one hell of a long wait and should be worth a considerable discount. And I ain't talking about no 10 or 15%.

Oh, and Charlie you can put me on your list of satisfied customers

BTW, IDT is NOT Eliminator, and Vice Versa.

Barney wrote:BTW, IDT is NOT Eliminator, and Vice Versa.

It can get a little confusing without a score card...

True.

[/quote]That's noble of you I guess. With one off stuff you kind of expect some wait. Is 22 month excessive? Yes, but there's threads about Kaase wait time also, and I've had problems with TFS stuff at times, but still feel they are a good company and don't make a point to passively aggressively steer people away from their product. It's different to wait for payment on labor than a one off product that costs money to produce. I don't think anyone's questioning your customer service in the least, so for you to be on a soapbox in regards to it befuddles me slightly. It's a fact you do it for profit, it's also a fact you favor, or at least more commonly use products other than Eliminator products, so for you to immediately throw up a post siting " red flags", is if nothing else slightly suspect. no ones questioning you abilities, or level of services. Having been around a number of Eliminator products I will say to the OP that they are very good pieces, but aren't produced in the quantities that other comparable pieces are so the level of commonly shared information is limited because of the low market share they possess. The head in question is most definitely for a large CI max effort high RPM motor, one that would also require a cylinder head such as a Thor, Profiler, A441 caliber head.[/quote]

Barney,

Let me correct you on a couple of things.

1. On my high end heads, the customer bill may be $7,000, $8,000 or $9,000. I have my money tied up in the heads, a full set of titanium valves, then the springs, retainers, locks, cups and etc., and sometimes even the shaft mounted rocker arms. So it's not just "labor".

2. As for the red flags statement being "slightly suspect", it's not. IDT has had this problem before. I could name the people involved, but I won't.

3. What you don't know is that I was minding my own business and one morning (July 24th) got a call from Jody Gunter who is the gentleman that has waited 22 months. He told me that IDT had stopped returning his phone calls and/or his e-mails. He had mentioned the problem to his engine builder (Monte Green) and that Monte suggested that he call me and see if I could get anything done about it. At that time, I called Blake Cartwright and told him the problem and asked for Jay's phone number as it had been changed. Blake started to give it to me, and then said "better yet, just let me call him". That got some results and apparently Jay had the machinist call Jody and the machinist said it would be two weeks, that he was machining the spark plug holes then. It has been two weeks and 5 days now and Jody still doesn't have the heads. In a subquent phone call with Jody he said he's been hearing the "two weeks" line forever.

4. Meanwhile the OP (FastLane) is Lane Carey and for those of you who do not know Lane, he is the owner of the '71 SCJ Mustang that holds all the F.A.S.T. records and is making great achievements for all the restrictions of the class. He is a customer of mine, I have ported his intake manifold, and therefore I do have a vested interest in his well being. I said red flag MAYBE.

Charlie

Well all I will say is I've seen this type of thing before with specialized stuff and anyone that has been around knows sometimes the delays can be long. I know Charlie knows this, and knows nobody is trying to scam anyone in this case too. I think he also knows what he may tie up in a customers job he can get back out a lot easier than IDTon a set of custom one off heads.

I think he also knows or should know that designing, casting, and having machined very low volume stuff is just a plain mine field and one can expect delays. I know years ago I had a long wait with a set of heads from AR and it was not a low volume deal, but was during the startup period. I remember a set of custom pistons that took a year from Bill Miller. Anyone know how long some waited for heads from the Smith Brothers? How about BT?

If you can wait it out you likely will have something, at least one would hope would be worth the wait. Pointing out there has been long delay and a guy has been waiting 22 months is fair and IDT just like all the rest of these guys need to work on better communication and be more conservative on quoting dates, but a red flag and take a stand??? Jesus knocking over tables??? I just not sure how this all should be on a forum. I'd think better handled by a PM.

As said, some delays should/ could be expected in a "start-up" phase..As long as the vender is up front when called on it...
When you call and call and hear "it will be x number of weeks " each time...that don't cut it...

I was offered a dealership for an aftermarket Ford product ( those who know Dad and I will know who).
I declined it when I could not tell a customer when he was going to get his product, after I had his money...
This went on for a LONG time and I finally had to return his $$$.

Now, in their defense, this was a few years ago and they have gotten better about deliverys..

Just my .02...

c.evans wrote:

That's noble of you I guess. With one off stuff you kind of expect some wait. Is 22 month excessive? Yes, but there's threads about Kaase wait time also, and I've had problems with TFS stuff at times, but still feel they are a good company and don't make a point to passively aggressively steer people away from their product. It's different to wait for payment on labor than a one off product that costs money to produce. I don't think anyone's questioning your customer service in the least, so for you to be on a soapbox in regards to it befuddles me slightly. It's a fact you do it for profit, it's also a fact you favor, or at least more commonly use products other than Eliminator products, so for you to immediately throw up a post siting " red flags", is if nothing else slightly suspect. no ones questioning you abilities, or level of services. Having been around a number of Eliminator products I will say to the OP that they are very good pieces, but aren't produced in the quantities that other comparable pieces are so the level of commonly shared information is limited because of the low market share they possess. The head in question is most definitely for a large CI max effort high RPM motor, one that would also require a cylinder head such as a Thor, Profiler, A441 caliber head.[/quote]

Barney,

Let me correct you on a couple of things.

1. On my high end heads, the customer bill may be $7,000, $8,000 or $9,000. I have my money tied up in the heads, a full set of titanium valves, then the springs, retainers, locks, cups and etc., and sometimes even the shaft mounted rocker arms. So it's not just "labor".

2. As for the red flags statement being "slightly suspect", it's not. IDT has had this problem before. I could name the people involved, but I won't.

3. What you don't know is that I was minding my own business and one morning (July 24th) got a call from Jody Gunter who is the gentleman that has waited 22 months. He told me that IDT had stopped returning his phone calls and/or his e-mails. He had mentioned the problem to his engine builder (Monte Green) and that Monte suggested that he call me and see if I could get anything done about it. At that time, I called Blake Cartwright and told him the problem and asked for Jay's phone number as it had been changed. Blake started to give it to me, and then said "better yet, just let me call him". That got some results and apparently Jay had the machinist call Jody and the machinist said it would be two weeks, that he was machining the spark plug holes then. It has been two weeks and 5 days now and Jody still doesn't have the heads. In a subquent phone call with Jody he said he's been hearing the "two weeks" line forever.

4. Meanwhile the OP (FastLane) is Lane Carey and for those of you who do not know Lane, he is the owner of the '71 SCJ Mustang that holds all the F.A.S.T. records and is making great achievements for all the restrictions of the class. He is a customer of mine, I have ported his intake manifold, and therefore I do have a vested interest in his well being. I said red flag MAYBE.

Charlie[/quote]I don't know what exactly you've corrected???

1. Some valves and hardware isn't really a good comparison to one off machining, tooling, and casting. I've fronted parts and money on tons of projects, it doesn't make me a saint. (bear in mind I in NO WAY make a living, or support my family through anything automotive)

2. Many suppliers, part companies, vendors, builders, have had and will continue to have these "problems" and I won't drop any names either, but I know plenty that do OK work intentionally just to have the customer come back to be charged again to make improvements that should have been done in the first place and the customer is none the wiser. With the circles you are in, and the names you drop I am very sure your privy to the workings of IDT and Eliminator and how one isn't the other and the history of it all. To single out IDT and Eliminator amidst the sea of the aforementioned businesses that have these "problems"is to me ABSOLUTELY suspect, especially since you clearly don't commonly use that product and have an established following of loyal customers who respect your opinion and can be easily influenced to purchase the products that financially benefit you.


3. This point is just a name dropping extension of point 2. As said I could send you a laundry list of multiple costly problems I've had with custom part manufacturers from valvetrain part manufacturers to chassis parts, and all the phone conversations ive had with cool name people,but that wouldnt benefit me in the least.

4. So since the OP is a customer of yours your vested because you potentially stand to gain by him NOT purchasing a product you don't openly market, what's you point? He asked if anyone knew any info regarding how good they were, not how happy we're people with lead time and business practices.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, and to save the time of point and counterpointing altogether. These are my OPINIONS and how I feel about the whole thing, I was not in the mind of the great Charlie Evans when he was typing the original reply so his intent could have been completely angelic.

I myself have had several deals with Jay and I have also had to wait to get the product.............. But every time, I mean every time I have gotten more than I have paid for. A couple of times way more than I paid for.

I am friends with Charlie and Jay, And I hate to be in the middle.

Jay and his dad have helped me numerous times and are wealth of knowledge.

Jay could be a good contributor of information on this board, but shy,s away because some don't share his views of engine building on this board.

Everybody has their views of engine building, Jay tends to step out to the edge and extracts big hp.

It has been said of me, that I am not a racer but a rolling dyno. And thinking about it I guess I am. I like to get the best out of what the parts that I am using have to offer.

Jays thinking on engine dynamics suits me and I enjoy his input.

To each his own, but myself I like to hear all of the inputs and info from all and choose what and who I listen to.

IDT-572 wrote:I myself have had several deals with Jay and I have also had to wait to get the product.............. But every time, I mean every time I have gotten more than I have paid for. A couple of times way more than I paid for.

I am friends with Charlie and Jay, And I hate to be in the middle.

Jay and his dad have helped me numerous times and are wealth of knowledge.

Jay could be a good contributor of information on this board, but shy,s away because some don't share his views of engine building on this board.

Everybody has their views of engine building, Jay tends to step out to the edge and extracts big hp.

It has been said of me, that I am not a racer but a rolling dyno. And thinking about it I guess I am. I like to get the best out of what the parts that I am using have to offer.

Jays thinking on engine dynamics suits me and I enjoy his input.

To each his own, but myself I like to hear all of the inputs and info from all and choose what and who I listen to.

Your not in the middle of anything from where I stand. I just FELT it to be in poor taste.