Still killing the tires!!!!

regarding number 5.....this may move up/down by 20% or so for a slick. As I was typying I remembered you were not on a radial

i'd a guessed the 200# spring was not enough see,i'm not a ss guy.

i got 150s on mine

Barney wrote:i got 150s on mine

the rate,pounds per inch,adds up with suspension travel i guess.

yellowhorse7 wrote:Let's start with the basics.....

1. Front spring is wrong. I'd bet money it would like a 150, 14" spring

2. Front Ride height is too high. Lower it down to where you can only get your thumb in between the tire and the fender. We will discuss straps/limiters later. Travel can be your friend or your enemy, depending on the A/S value.

3. Air pressure may be too low but I doubt it. You seem right in the park. Don't remember reading it but that car needs a tube and a stiff wall tire IMO

4. Convertor LOOKS dead wrong. Wheel speed is you friend and it looks as if there isn't enough. The slow motion vid kinda hides it though. How tall is the rear gear?

5. Where is the IC and the A/S? The A/S number, in most cases (not all) needs to be as close to 100% as possible, maybe slightly over. And too long of an IC and the car will act as if it's 100 feet long, meaning that it won't transfer the weight

6. Where are the shock setting on the rear DA's? Those may be the source of your issue as well


lemme know and I'll try and help

1. 10-4 on the front spring. I'll try that.

2. With the 557 the car sat much lower but I had to put 10 turns in the coil overs to keep these foxbody headers that fit the 514 from dragging the ground as they hang very low (My custom a head headers tuck up tight to the bottom of the car so I can have a lower front stance). The 557 had the same launching issues. I have travel limiters but only run them one pass as the car didn't like/seem to need them them.

3. Tires are tubed stiff walls.

4. Convertor flashes 5200 massaged by Lenny this past winter. 3.89 gear ratio.

5. Good question! I was reading and learning more about ic and as last night. Actually on the sticky above. I'm going to check further into this.

6. I have tried all over the board and even things that don't make sence but currently they are at what you suggested before and what has seem to work the best at 8 clicks off full loose on compression and 3 clicks on rebound.

As the car sits at ride height, what do the lower control arms look like in the front? Dead level, pointing up, pointing down?

yellowhorse7 wrote:As the car sits at ride height, what do the lower control arms look like in the front? Dead level, pointing up, pointing down?

Tony please clarify what that will tell.

I've been out of the loop for quite some time and going to try to get back in it.

cool40 wrote:

Barney wrote:i got 150s on mine

the rate,pounds per inch,adds up with suspension travel i guess.

130's on mine

richter69 wrote:

cool40 wrote:

Barney wrote:i got 150s on mine

the rate,pounds per inch,adds up with suspension travel i guess.

130's on mine

I have 175 # on mine and they are too stiff need 150's or 130 might work too.

bigblockfox468 wrote:

yellowhorse7 wrote:As the car sits at ride height, what do the lower control arms look like in the front? Dead level, pointing up, pointing down?

Tony please clarify what that will tell.

I've been out of the loop for quite some time and going to try to get back in it.

Ok...here we go....

If the front of the LCA is pointing too far upwards it will shove the body up and the axle will drive straight into the racing surface. Tires get hit too hard, it instantly hooks but then it'll blow the tires off by the 330 (or sooner). The tires have become unloaded. If the LCA points down in front, the body now gets pushed down as well. As the rear end is "wrapping" and the body is getting shoved down, the axle is unloading itself from the surface. During this process the car apears to be squatting and trying to hook, but then boom, the cars blows the tires off. Weight was never transferred. Imagine a point in front of the LCA and the UCA.....This "point" is where they would intersect if there were some imaginary line extending the both of them. If that intersect point is too far forward, or never intersects (which is the case when the LCA points down), the above scenario occurs. If that point is too short and the LCA is pointing at a severe upward angle, the body seperates as described in the first scenario. Thhe trick is as close to level as possible, at race weight, or maybe a tick upward. This allows momentum to travel forward. Fast SS cars don't squat and they rarely wheelie...they just go!

Here's the problem with all this. FOX body cars have terrible factory geometry. The intersect point (Instant Center) is about 20 feet in front of the car! The leverage is horrible at that intersect point. The easiest way to correct is to relocate the uppers with a relocation bracket like the ones Team Z sells. OR, you can add a bracket to lower the rear portion of the LCA. These will give you the right angles, or close to it. Ride height plays a big part in all this as things will change once the ride height is manipulated. I am currently using Team Z relocated uppers, a cut GT spring to achieve the correct height and a Strange 10 way. I go pretty consistent 1.19's. I am however going to try taking the relocation brackets off of the uppers and make lowering brackets for the LCA's. My car loves to be on the bumper and by doing this it will simmer everything down. I hope this helps.....


Edit: Let me add for the RADIAL guys that if you were plot out a suspension, you'd be looking for an Anti Squat of just barely above 100% and an IC at below 50".

And 130's will be too low for that car. Sorry guys

Yeller, my current bias is 56-44. Do you strongly feel this thing wants the 150's in the front? If so, thats what I will order. I put the 110's on the back but they are close to binding and bought some 130's. I haven't put them on yet. I'll post the ic as stuff tomorrow once I get it measured and figured. Thanks

The easiest way to correct is to relocate the uppers with a relocation bracket like the ones Team Z sells. OR, you can add a bracket to lower the rear portion of the LCA. These will give you the right angles, or close to it. Ride height plays a big part in all this as things will change once the ride height is manipulated. I am currently using Team Z relocated uppers, a cut GT spring to achieve the correct height and a Strange 10 way. I go pretty consistent 1.19's. I am however going to try taking the relocation brackets off of the uppers and make lowering brackets for the LCA's. My car loves to be on the bumper and by doing this it will simmer everything down. I hope this helps.....

I have heard others mention concerns towards the upper mount to the rear end. I may pop some pics and psot them as well.

soupbean wrote: The easiest way to correct is to relocate the uppers with a relocation bracket like the ones Team Z sells. OR, you can add a bracket to lower the rear portion of the LCA. These will give you the right angles, or close to it. Ride height plays a big part in all this as things will change once the ride height is manipulated. I am currently using Team Z relocated uppers, a cut GT spring to achieve the correct height and a Strange 10 way. I go pretty consistent 1.19's. I am however going to try taking the relocation brackets off of the uppers and make lowering brackets for the LCA's. My car loves to be on the bumper and by doing this it will simmer everything down. I hope this helps.....

I have heard others mention concerns towards the upper mount to the rear end. I may pop some pics and psot them as well.

The concern is that with the relocated uppers, you would need to raise the rear ride height enough to level out the control arm. That will affect te IC and the thing will be wheelie prone. You can dial the wheelie out somewhat with shock settings and limiters in front.

soupbean wrote:Yeller, my current bias is 56-44. Do you strongly feel this thing wants the 150's in the front? If so, thats what I will order. I put the 110's on the back but they are close to binding and bought some 130's. I haven't put them on yet. I'll post the ic as stuff tomorrow once I get it measured and figured. Thanks

Strong enough without seeing the car.....springs are cheap enough to try both. But 150's are where I would start. The 110's in the rear may in fact be okay. Remember that sprins are only holding the car up. A close to perfect rear suspension will not compress nor extend the spring.....

Alright, my curiousity was killing me and had to go to the shop and pull some measurements. These are approximate numbers with a hair of compensation due to the car being inside the trailer that is dove tailed. BUT, according to the calculator on the sticky posted on this section, and with the front end being jacked up to give the back up motor ground clearance, the AS is 74.2% IC length is 44.80" and IC height is 6.55". That is based off calling the camshaft CG @ 20" (it was showing 21" but I knocked off and inch due to the rear being down because of the dove tail) . Lower control arm - Length:17.5" front height: 8.5" rear height: 9.75". Upper control arm - Length:9" front height: 15.5" rear height: 17.75"

soupbean wrote:Alright, my curiousity was killing me and had to go to the shop and pull some measurements. These are approximate numbers with a hair of compensation due to the car being inside the trailer that is dove tailed. BUT, according to the calculator on the sticky posted on this section, and with the front end being jacked up to give the back up motor ground clearance, the AS is 74.2% IC length is 44.80" and IC height is 6.55". That is based off calling the camshaft CG @ 20" (it was showing 21" but I knocked off and inch due to the rear being down because of the dove tail) . Lower control arm - Length:17.5" front height: 8.5" rear height: 9.75". Upper control arm - Length:9" front height: 15.5" rear height: 17.75"

At race weight?????? Get that AS above 100 and try and keep the IC and around where it is or even loser to fifty. Those LCA are pointing down.....no good

yellowhorse7 wrote:The concern is that with the relocated uppers, you would need to raise the rear ride height enough to level out the control arm.

so your really just lowering the rear of the lower control arm without drilling any holes or welding on any brackets, by raising eveything else?

Ok. Today I took the car out of the trailer and put the car on the nice level shop floor and pulled more accurate measurements . As it currently sits with the front jacked up for header ground clearence with the back up motor, race ready minus driver (haven't figured out how to sit in it and pull the measurements at the same time), if calling the cam vertical CG it's 19.5". Car weight is 1785 front and 1400 rear for a 56-44 bias. Horizontal CG is 56.84" from rear axle. Uca lenght is 9". Uca front bolt from the ground is 15.75". Uca rear bolt is 17.75". LCA length is 17.5", Lca front bolt is 9.380", Lca rear bolt is 9.75". Calculated says 116.55% AS with an IC length of 39.79" and an IC heigth of 8.91"

soupbean wrote:Ok. Today I took the car out of the trailer and put the car on the nice level shop floor and pulled more accurate measurements . As it currently sits with the front jacked up for header ground clearence with the back up motor, race ready minus driver (haven't figured out how to sit in it and pull the measurements at the same time), if calling the cam vertical CG it's 19.5". Car weight is 1785 front and 1400 rear for a 56-44 bias. Horizontal CG is 56.84" from rear axle. Uca lenght is 9". Uca front bolt from the ground is 15.75". Uca rear bolt is 17.75". LCA length is 17.5", Lca front bolt is 9.380", Lca rear bolt is 9.75". Calculated says 116.55% AS with an IC length of 39.79" and an IC heigth of 8.91"

I use weights and sandbags to simulate the driver.

Barney wrote:

soupbean wrote:Ok. Today I took the car out of the trailer and put the car on the nice level shop floor and pulled more accurate measurements . As it currently sits with the front jacked up for header ground clearence with the back up motor, race ready minus driver (haven't figured out how to sit in it and pull the measurements at the same time), if calling the cam vertical CG it's 19.5". Car weight is 1785 front and 1400 rear for a 56-44 bias. Horizontal CG is 56.84" from rear axle. Uca lenght is 9". Uca front bolt from the ground is 15.75". Uca rear bolt is 17.75". LCA length is 17.5", Lca front bolt is 9.380", Lca rear bolt is 9.75". Calculated says 116.55% AS with an IC length of 39.79" and an IC heigth of 8.91"

I use weights and sandbags to simulate the driver.

I could be wrong but the car is so stiff I don't think my weight would change any of the ground to bolt measurements.

Barney wrote:.......I use weights and sandbags to simulate the driver.......

I have used both weights & cylinder heads to get close to driver weight, then a 5 gallon bucket filled with lead shot to fine tune the rest of the way to full driver weight.

Now with all of the information I have provided. WTH does this thing want?

1. What would be an ideal IC with the current CG?

2. To lengthen the IC, I could install adjustable shock mount brackets to lower the rear of the car. Will that make the IC better or worse?

soupbean wrote:1. What would be an ideal IC with the current CG?

2. To lengthen the IC, I could install adjustable shock mount brackets to lower the rear of the car. Will that make the IC better or worse?

2. Nevermind. That will make the front LCA even worse.