Improved IRON replacement CJ head...?

I get some calls about this so, I am just curious as to what would be the popularity of a replacement iron CJ head.

I have modified a few of those with a relocated intake valve, (Big Block Chevrolet location with A460 angles), different angle exhaust valve, (in the same chamber location) but, on this replacement head, the ports would be rather like stock, (not ported).

How would a head like this be received by the populace...?

Recast the factory head and just add meat to allow porting.

IMO make it look exactly like a factory head externaly.

I think with the number of guys limited to iron heads it would fill a void, but what would the cost be?

I think there is a need for it but cost will have to be kept down. EX-514 Iron heads are way out of most peoples budgets and last time I checked bare casting were a minimum of $3500 and by the time you got them machined for valves, ported just to clean them up and new valves your gonna be way over $5000 for a set of heavy heads.

http://www.barnetthighperformance.com/heads_iron.htm

Those guys still list as having a new CJ iron in the works/ Been that way for a long time though.

I would be interested depending on the cost, and also compatibility in a vacuum class engine.

They have been saying that head is coming for several years. I wouldnt hold my breath on them.

I think it would fill a huge void. If you could get some one to cast the iron blue thunder head that would be great also/instead of.

lol. Every time I call they say next month.

They would certainly fill a void. I know when all is said and done, I could have bought P51's for what I will have in a set of iron CJ's. An iron head that sounds like it would be on par performance wise between an out of the box aluminum CJ and P51 would be in great demand.

As Barnett goes, I wont even bother clicking the link.

lghting94 wrote:I think there is a need for it but cost will have to be kept down. EX-514 Iron heads are way out of most peoples budgets and last time I checked bare casting were a minimum of $3500 and by the time you got them machined for valves, ported just to clean them up and new valves your gonna be way over $5000 for a set of heavy heads.

I was told it is more like $7500 to $8g's fully ported ready to bolt on with titanium valves. When I was president of ITPA, I called the head manufactures and practically begged Kaase for a new iron head because of all the iron head rules out there and was told that there isn't enough of a market. So my plea's were ignored. There is a need for an improved replacement for the DO0e-R head

I believe there is a need for an iron head that frankly is better than the P51's for small cube motors. Kaase told me that he felt the P51's would be max'd out at 850ish on a 470 puller. And I know in Indiana and Kentucky 900 or better is needed.

I know there is a demand out there in both pulling, and mud drag venues. The cost must be on par with a full dress DOOE, and offer more performance. If this is possible, they would definitely sell.

lghting94 wrote:I think there is a need for it but cost will have to be kept down. EX-514 Iron heads are way out of most peoples budgets and last time I checked bare casting were a minimum of $3500 and by the time you got them machined for valves, ported just to clean them up and new valves your gonna be way over $5000 for a set of heavy heads.

"Cost down" is totally subjective.
I imagine these head castings would be in the $900.00 each range of pricing after having some serious discussion with model makers, tooling makers, foundries and machining companies.
PRICE is not the impetus behind this head maybe being manufactured.

There are NO more EX-514 heads, aluminum or iron. These heads will have completely OEM port locations at the flange.

I would say that would be a reasonable price point considering the scarcity of the DOOE castings and price they are now commanding. If one considers this is a new and improved design with more performance, they should sell well to the people whose rules dictate a cast iron head. Good luck and I hope you get them into production because there is a lot of people who have been asking for this very product for a long time.

There is a need, cost I don't think is a major concern as long as they will perform competively and be available. Availiblity is a major issue today.

There is certainly a need & market for these heads. I don't think people would mind paying a decent price for them if there is performance to be gained, even if it's after there ported. Just so the capability is there. IMO if they were better than even what can be gotten from the Dooe-r heads, I think you would see some guys pulling their cobra jets off to put these on. Good luck & I hope this may become a reality, we need it! -A

The distinct thing is that these projected heads will have the valves moved only within the 2 degree limit of production like most cast iron head rules read. They needed to do this so the cast iron Chevrolet aftermarket heads would be legal, (those intake valve angles are tilted from 26 degrees to 24).
Also, by moving the intake valve location slightly the "valve to valve" clearance will no longer present any problem at all to the installation of larger valves if wanted and using larger camshafts.

The heads in "Out of the box" form should perform simply like a normal CJ iron head however, it will be more conducive to being modified.

It is long over due................

IDT-572 wrote:It is long over due................

x2

4speed wrote:There is certainly a need & market for these heads. I don't think people would mind paying a decent price for them if there is performance to be gained, even if it's after there ported. Just so the capability is there. IMO if they were better than even what can be gotten from the Dooe-r heads, I think you would see some guys pulling their cobra jets off to put these on. Good luck & I hope this may become a reality, we need it! -A

X2

I think there is a potentially good market out there for it. I'd like to see the capability of enough valve relocation to allow nearly a 2.35 intake and maybe a 1.8 ex. valve in extreme deals. More material in the roof and less belly in the intake port. Surely the exhaust will be revised, reshape the exhaust outlet to maybe a D shaped port, keep the bolt pattern and move the flange up and to the right. Maybe a nice figure 8 style chamber. It would really be great if these could have a Ford part number and be offered by Ford Racing.

This thing needs to be capable of competing with the RHS(now EQ) BBC iron head which can be pretty good in the right hands and is capable of making 950 in a single carb 480ish motor.

Bret

an Iron P-51 head would be cool for the puller guys.

Why isn't there more push on this? I would think manufacturers would just need to look at howw well the big block chevy after market heads sell and figure sales for Fords based on those numbers if the Ford head would be competitive with both the chevy head in hp and cost. $8000 for a set of Ex514s is out of most guys range even if you could find a good set.

dfree383 wrote:an Iron P-51 head would be cool for the puller guys.

Sorry, but With Kasse himself telling me that the P-51's would max out in the mid 800s hp range on a 470 motor, that tells me that if a new head is going to be designed, then it needs to be closer in capability to the a460.

[rant on] IMHO, the iron head rule needs to disappear in pulling. It started as a way to have an affordable entry level class, but has evolved so far beyond that now it is more cost effective to go with aluminum and there are so many more choices out there. The insistance on staying with iron is simply stupid. [rant off]

I agree A460 style performance would be nice, but that really limits the market. A good factory angle deal would be marketable to a lot more potential buyers.

Bret Powell wrote:I think there is a potentially good market out there for it. I'd like to see the capability of enough valve relocation to allow nearly a 2.35 intake and maybe a 1.8 ex. valve in extreme deals. More material in the roof and less belly in the intake port. Surely the exhaust will be revised, reshape the exhaust outlet to maybe a D shaped port, keep the bolt pattern and move the flange up and to the right. Maybe a nice figure 8 style chamber. It would really be great if these could have a Ford part number and be offered by Ford Racing.

This thing needs to be capable of competing with the RHS(now EQ) BBC iron head which can be pretty good in the right hands and is capable of making 950 in a single carb 480ish motor.

Bret

I know exactly where you are coming from Bret.
This has to be a replacement CJ head to please MOST everybody, (manufacturers want as large a base market area as they can have for sales), so a bunch of compromises are necessary.
The prototype head is an A429 aluminum head as modification is much easier than a cast iron head core.

1. The exhaust port is slightly smaller but in the same location. The flange bolt pattern is raised only .125" to allow both a regular header flange and a CJ header flange to fit.

2. The spark plug is angled differently and moved in the chamber toward the exhaust side to allow a more complete burn and less timing needed to accomplish power.

3. The chamber shape is pretty much the same as it was to allow the head to replace a CJ in street type and other stock restoration type applications.

4. The intake valve is the same angle as an A460 valve, (13 x 5), however, the "pierce point" is about .050" toward the exhaust side so a big block Chevy notch location is correct. This allows an A460 intake valve location piston to be used as well.

5. The exhaust valve is in the same location in the chamber as before however, the "pierce point" is move slightly because the angles are now 14 x 2 degrees. It also allows considerable more space between the valves on the seat and will not become a problem with "valve to valve" clearance with large camshafts.

6. The intake valve itself is a .250" long big block Chevy with an 11/32" stem. The intake spring seat is moved higher to allow for extra ROOF porting.

7. ALL the flanges and port locations at the flanges are in the stock OEM location.

One cylinder in the head is done and the head is "out" getting the other 3 cylinders to match.