LIFTERS WENT BAD????--NEED ADVICE

Pull it out and find the problem.

I;m betting on a leak on the suction side of the oil pump sucking air , seen it before ! aerates the oil and the lifters will be noisey
Frank

Frank Merkl wrote:I;m betting on a leak on the suction side of the oil pump sucking air , seen it before ! aerates the oil and the lifters will be noisey
Frank

I pulled off both the oil pan and the oil pump the other day and and inspected the oil pump and pickup tube for cracks and didn't discover anything out of the ordinary. If the oil pump was sucking air, all of the lifters would have air in them and be noisy. But there is only one ticking sound, somewhere. This is what's confusing considering this original problem was that I did pump air into the lifters because I was low on oil and I was on a 6% incline. All the lifters were noisy and loose. Once I got the truck home, primed the oil system and got oil back in the lifters, and the lifters quieted down, except for the one loud ticking sound.

If it was ran low of oil long enough for the lifters to dump its hurt!

cool40 wrote:If it was ran low of oil long enough for the lifters to dump its hurt!

"What" exactly is hurt? That's what I've been trying to figure out. All the lifters are new as of yesterday, so it's not the lifters that are "hurt". Any idea what other component in the engine would be emitting a ticking sound (like a lifter or loose rocker arm would make)? If it was a loose rod or main cap it would be making a deeper, "knocking" sound. This is a "ticking" sound and it's up high in the engine, not in the bottom of the engine.

Ok, I know you'll think this is silly but I have to ask. Are you running a mechanical fuel pump? I ask because I once had a mechanical fule pump that made a noise very similar to valve train noise. It drove me nuts for a while, then I found it with a stethoscope. I know you said the noise was up top, but I had to ask...grasping at straws here.  

Have you checked all the spark plugs and wires too make sure it isn't jumping fire somewhere? Like Maverick said,we are picking at straws at this point.

78 F150 wrote:

cool40 wrote:If it was ran low of oil long enough for the lifters to dump its hurt!

"What" exactly is hurt? That's what I've been trying to figure out. All the lifters are new as of yesterday, so it's not the lifters that are "hurt". Any idea what other component in the engine would be emitting a ticking sound (like a lifter or loose rocker arm would make)? If it was a loose rod or main cap it would be making a deeper, "knocking" sound. This is a "ticking" sound and it's up high in the engine, not in the bottom of the engine.

you've already looked over the top end so whats left? Like i said if you've ran it low of oil to the point the lifters fell its very possible you have bottom end trouble. IMO

maverick wrote:Ok, I know you'll think this is silly but I have to ask.  Are you running a mechanical fuel pump?  I ask because I once had a mechanical fule pump that made a noise very similar to valve train noise.  It drove me nuts for a while, then I found it with a stethoscope. I know you said the noise was up top, but I had to ask...grasping at straws here.  

No, I'm using a EFI electronic fuel pump. I have the FAST EZ EFI on this truck. Fuel pump is back by the gas tank.

bbf-falcon wrote:Have you checked all the spark plugs and wires too make sure it isn't jumping fire somewhere? Like Maverick said,we are picking at straws at this point.

No I haven't checked that yet. I'll do that when I do the other tests I was advised to do. Gonna check compression, pull the plug wires one at a time and listen for the noise to quit, disconnect the drive belts to make sure it's not the alt or ps pump, etc....

cool40 wrote:

78 F150 wrote:

cool40 wrote:If it was ran low of oil long enough for the lifters to dump its hurt!

"What" exactly is hurt? That's what I've been trying to figure out. All the lifters are new as of yesterday, so it's not the lifters that are "hurt". Any idea what other component in the engine would be emitting a ticking sound (like a lifter or loose rocker arm would make)? If it was a loose rod or main cap it would be making a deeper, "knocking" sound. This is a "ticking" sound and it's up high in the engine, not in the bottom of the engine.

you've already looked over the top end so whats left? Like i said if you've ran it low of oil to the point the lifters fell its very possible you have bottom end trouble. IMO

After I do the other external tests I was advised to do, if the problem isn't discovered then I think I might pull the cam out and get a better look at the cam and take a look at the cam bearings. Depending on what the cam and cam bearings looks like, if I can't find anything wrong then I guess I'm gonna have to pull the engine and tear it down. I'm hoping to not have to go that far. We'll see what I discover after doing the external tests. I'll report back with me findings. It will be sometime mid-week probably (if I can't get to it today).

just pull the motor out ! it will be allot easier to work on !
Frank

Buy a complete gasket kit pull the engine open it up check everything think about it will be cheaper in the long.

UPDATE...Ok guys, I had time to do one test tonight and I have some pretty good info and I need someone to tell me what it means. The test I did was to let the truck run and pull one plug wire at a time to see if the ticking went away. After doing this will all 8 plug wires, at no time did the ticking noise ever go away. It continued to tick.

However, with that said....I remember someone asking whether the ticking sound went away or changed under load or when the rpm was increased, etc....

One thing I did notice was that as soon as I fire up the engine I can't hear the ticking noise. Now keep in mind that the rpm automatically revs up to about 2000 rpm and then settles down to an idle at around 900. So when the engine settles down to an idle the ticking noise arrives and is really really loud. So when I noticed this I decided to test this by revving up the engine slowly to about 2000 or a little more and see what I could notice. It seems that when I hit about 1700 -1800 rpm I can't really hear the ticking noise at all. I can kind of hear it; it's really really faint and I have to concentrate to hear it, but it's almost non-existent. When I rev the engine even higher the ticking noise seems to disappear even more and I pretty much can't hear it at all. However, as I rev up the engine, the ticking noise gets faster as the engine rpm increases and then the noise slowly fades away as the rpm gets higher. And the engine seems to run just a tad rough at idle and when I first start to increase the engine rpm (but not too bad) and seems to smooth out as I increase the rpm and as the ticking noise goes away.

So can someone please tell me what all this means? Does this help to determine where the problem is?

1) Because the ticking noise never went away when I unplugged the spark plug wires, does this mean my wrist pins are NOT the problem?

2) What does the characteristics of the ticking noise tell you the problem is?

Thanks for the input guys....

how do you tune this with the EFI? could it be too lean at an idle or preignition?

Ace

I had a similar problem a while back with stuff loosening up, re-set then run and found loose again. Some of the rockers were pulling out of the head and you did not notice it until you took all of them apart and found stripped holes. Ultimately found bad cam lobe from needle bearings off one of the tips eating away.
Long story short, just start tearing it down and quit with the guess work. Inspect EVERY part as you remove. IMO   

What's the oil pressure at 900rpms? What's the oil pressure at 2000rpm. Remember these are Hydraulic roller lifters. Sounds to me that your lifters aren't pumping up. At this point I would check the lifters bores and find out what your clearances on the lifters are. Again this is just a shot in the dark.

powerstrokeace wrote:how do you tune this with the EFI? could it be too lean at an idle or preignition?

Ace

The beauty of this EFI system is that it tunes itself as the engine runs. Upon installation, you enter the basic information about your setup (how many cylinders, cubic inches, etc...) and then fire up the engine. The O2 sensor reads the A/F mixture in the exhaust gasses and sends a signal to the computer and the computer makes the necessary adjustments. It stores the corrected a/f ratio parameters in the computer's memory and runs off this table. However, it constantly makes adjustments as needed as the O2 sensor reads the a/f ratio. It's basically a speed density system.

With that said, I can check the computer for error codes and see if it made some sort of adjustment when the lifters had air in them and the valves weren't opening. I will look into this....

bronco911 wrote:I had a similar problem a while back with stuff loosening up, re-set then run and found loose again. Some of the rockers were pulling out of the head and you did not notice it until you took all of them apart and found stripped holes. Ultimately found bad cam lobe from needle bearings off one of the tips eating away.
Long story short, just start tearing it down and quit with the guess work. Inspect EVERY part as you remove. IMO   

Mine are screw in studs. Were your studs press in or screw in? I have inspected the rocker arms and push rods and they all look good. But that doesn't mean I didn't miss something.

Before I start tearing the engine apart, I want to have an idea of what I'm looking for. Otherwise there's a good chance I could overlook the problem even if it's staring me in the face. I'm trying to get an idea of what the problem could be based off the symptoms of the engine and how it's reacting and hopefully that will tell me what parts to look at and inspect. For example, if this is a valve train issue, there's no need to pull apart the bottom of the engine....see my point?

460pulling wrote:What's the oil pressure at 900rpms? What's the oil pressure at 2000rpm. Remember these are Hydraulic roller lifters. Sounds to me that your lifters aren't pumping up. At this point I would check the lifters bores and find out what your clearances on the lifters are. Again this is just a shot in the dark.

Oil pressure is 75 lbs at idle. I'm not sure what the oil pressure is at 2000 rpm. I didn't look at that. I can do that tomorrow and report back.

I just had a thought regarding the lifters pumping up or not pumping up.....This whole problem happened when I ran low on oil and pumped the lifters full of air. Now I have this loud ticking sound even after replacing all the lifters with new ones. Question.....is it possible that I damaged the oil pump when it pumped air into the engine/lifters and now it's not keeping a lifter pumped up at idle for some reason even though I show 75 lbs on the oil pressure gauge???? Am I on the right track with this thinking? How likely is this? However, if I have 75 lbs of pressure at idle, why wouldn't the lifters stay pumped up? That doesn't sound logical. I too am just taking a shot in the dark.

78 F150 wrote:

powerstrokeace wrote:how do you tune this with the EFI? could it be too lean at an idle or preignition?

Ace

The beauty of this EFI system is that it tunes itself as the engine runs. Upon installation, you enter the basic information about your setup (how many cylinders, cubic inches, etc...) and then fire up the engine. The O2 sensor reads the A/F mixture in the exhaust gasses and sends a signal to the computer and the computer makes the necessary adjustments. It stores the corrected a/f ratio parameters in the computer's memory and runs off this table. However, it constantly makes adjustments as needed as the O2 sensor reads the a/f ratio. It's basically a speed density system.

IT TUNES ITSELF?
what if the 14.1 is too lean? can it be richen up?

Ace

powerstrokeace wrote:

78 F150 wrote:

powerstrokeace wrote:how do you tune this with the EFI? could it be too lean at an idle or preignition?

Ace

The beauty of this EFI system is that it tunes itself as the engine runs. Upon installation, you enter the basic information about your setup (how many cylinders, cubic inches, etc...) and then fire up the engine. The O2 sensor reads the A/F mixture in the exhaust gasses and sends a signal to the computer and the computer makes the necessary adjustments. It stores the corrected a/f ratio parameters in the computer's memory and runs off this table. However, it constantly makes adjustments as needed as the O2 sensor reads the a/f ratio. It's basically a speed density system.

IT TUNES ITSELF?
what if the 14.1 is too lean? can it be richen up?

Ace

Yes, I can go in and make changes to the a/f ratio

Sounds like either a piston pin or rod bearing are on their way out and the more you run it the more damage your going to cause! YOU RAN YOUR ENGINE WITHOUT OIL so bearings were not happy it is now time to pull the engine and dismantle it slowly checking ALL parts for abnormal wear or a difference in clearance from assembly time(should have been written down). In my opinion this will be the only way to find the problem. To keep taking stabs in the dark looking for a problem will cost more than spending the $85 to $105 on a full gasket set to tear it down and find your issue before complete catastrophic failure happens!

lghting94 wrote:Sounds like either a piston pin or rod bearing are on their way out and the more you run it the more damage your going to  cause!  YOU RAN YOUR ENGINE WITHOUT OIL so bearings were not happy it is now time to pull the engine and dismantle it slowly checking ALL parts for abnormal wear or a difference in clearance from assembly time(should have been written down).  In my opinion this will be the only way to find the problem.  To keep taking stabs in the dark looking for a problem will cost more than spending the $85 to $105 on a full gasket set to tear it down and find your issue before complete catastrophic failure happens!  

Yeah I wish the gaskets only cost $85 -$105. My head gaskets alone cost $209.

Couple questions....
1) I ran the engine and pulled the plug wires one at a time to see if the ticking noise would go away and it did not go away. Doesn't this test determine if the wrist pin is bad or not?

2) if it was a rod bearing, wouldn't it emit a deeper knocking sound rather than a ticking sound?

I didn't write down the clearances when I assembled the engine, so I have nothing to compare it to if I was to tear it down and take measurements.

Why on a street driven pump gas engine would your head gaskets cost over $200? I used plain old felpro on my old race engine with 14.5 to 1 compression and never in all my years of racing did I have a head gasket issue.

Question 1. How would pulling plug wire stop a wrist pin from knocking/ticking? movement in this area is movement piston goes up then goes down at top it switches direction if there is extra clearance it will make noise.

Question 2. Typically rod bearings do make a deeper knocking noise but generally at that point they are ready to toss the rod. My theory is it generally starts as a ticking and get worse with time.

In my opinion your are going to keep asking the same question because you are not getting the answer you want to hear, by all means continue to do so and let your engine and hard earned cash be wasted in a pile of scrap because you were being to cheap to take it out and find the problem.