C9VE engine from 69 Continental -- Have questions about where to go with this engine

Hello,

I have a kit car (cobra) that my dad bought some years ago and passed away earlier this year.  Before his passing, I promised him that I would finish it.  He bought a 69 Continental with a 460 with 80k miles.  The engine runs pretty good at this point.  I am trying to figure which direction to go with it.  My first thought was to retain the crank, rods, and pistons (assuming it doesnt need to be bored) and put on a set of aluminum heads with a Holley DP 750.  Given the cost of the heads, I am unsure if the cost involved is worth the gain that I would receive.  The heads are C9VE (original) without hardened seats.  How much money should I expect to spend on these heads to have them worth of performance and reliability?  What should I expect to have these ported?  My other thought is if I stick with stock heads, maybe I could go with a stroker.

What do you guys think?

The performance from most aluminum heads will exceed the stock iron stuff by a large margin and reduce weight.

How much more power will a set of aluminum heads give me over the c9ve, providing that these irons are ported?

Very well ported C9 heads are wheezing about where SCJ / P51 heads start.

Depending on which aluminum heads also..... Good guess is 25-75 hp better depending on your selection.

Also,the Aluminum heads will take about #70 off the nose of the kit car and improve the handling.

I am leaning towards aluminum heads. I just want to make sure that what I purchase will make sense. If I can spend $700 on these heads and make them work vs spending $1800+ on heads then that is what I am trying to find out.

I was looking at a set of the aluminum SCJ heads last night. How many versions are there to these heads other than bare and assembled? Any benefit to going bare vs assembled?

As long as they are assembled with what you need I don't see a down side to buying them that way. Ford does sell a roller lifter and a flat tappet version.

Other heads to look at include Kaase P51, Edelbrock and TFS Streets.

Your not going to much over a stock rebuild for $800 nowadays in that case you'd be looking ant 100hp plus gain with the aluminum heads.

Full boogie porting work will typically add about $1000 to your rebuild cost.

Making sure you know, that using the SCJ or the p51 will require different pistons because of different valve angle design. To not change the pistons you could go with A429 FMS,Edelbrock,TFS street, or Blue thunder.

this is the same post he had on the other site a couple months ago, almost word for word!!!!!!! and he got the same answers

Yes, I did post a thread in the other forum a couple months ago regarding these heads. I had forgotten about some of the information that was given in that post. I found this forum the other night and became a member. Seeings that I forgot about the information about piston replacement with the SCJ Heads, I posted another. I did find out some bits from this post that I didn't know from the other site.

bbf-falcon wrote:Making sure you know, that using the SCJ or the p51 will require different pistons because of different valve angle design. To not change the pistons you could go with A429 FMS,Edelbrock,TFS street, or Blue thunder.

If you go with a head with a larger intake valve you'll have to enlarge the valve relief in the piston even if it's a head with the standard valve locations like the A429, Edelbrock etc.

I think I would freshen the engine, change the cam, go to an aluminum intake and water pump and give it a try on the cheap, why not?

If I were to freshen up the block and retain stock heads, I am thinking it might be worthwhile to put new pistons in. That way when I decide to upgrade the heads, I wont have to deal with the stock pistons. If I were to go this route, do I need to worry about any balancing issues with the new pistons?

jruppert wrote:Hello,

I have a kit car (cobra) that my dad bought some years ago and passed away earlier this year.  He bought a 69 Continental with a 460 with 80k miles.  The engine runs pretty good at this point.  I am trying to figure which direction to go with it.  My first thought was to retain the crank, rods, and pistons (assuming it doesnt need to be bored) and put on a set of aluminum heads with a Holley DP 750.  Given the cost of the heads, I am unsure if the cost involved is worth the gain that I would receive.  The heads are C9VE (original) without hardened seats.  How much money should I expect to spend on these heads to have them worth of performance and reliability?  What should I expect to have these ported?  My other thought is if I stick with stock heads, maybe I could go with a stroker.

What do you guys think?

A 1969 460 doesn't necessarily require a dramatic power improvement to make a super fast Cobra kit car.  In stock form the 1968-1971 460s make about 325 real world hp, and with a few tweaks (short block freshen, massage the heads a bit, swap in a different distributor, cam, carb, intake and exhaust) 475 hp & 500+ torque is easily doable.  That would be a very quick and fast Cobra for the street.

In addition to head work, a stroker bottom end wound increase power proportionally. Aluminum heads would give you a lot more room to grow power-wise but most aluminum heads offer these days respond to bigger engines than they do on OEM 460s (not to say that the aluminum heads wouldn't offer more power than the iron, but the peak power might come a bit higher in the rpm range).

In regards to weight savings, once I've ported a C9VE casting they weigh about 61 pounds bare.  Aluminum heads might weigh perhaps 35 pounds but any material removal from them is not only less than the iron head but the removed material weighs less than the iron to begin with, so the difference in final weight between the two is only about 25 pounds (50 pounds for two heads) the valve train hardware weight difference is a wash.  C9VE heads with a full port job, valve job, new stainless valves, new flat tappet springs, new locks, etc, ready to bolt on go for about $1100-$1400 and would be capable of supporting 600-700 hp NA, the pricing and capabilities depending on particulars.

You haven't really specified what amount of power you wish to generate with the engine, and the desired power numbers will notably influence which components you ultimately choose for your engine combo.

Paul Kane,

You bring up some valid points. To be quite honest, I haven't really sat down to think about just how much power do I want. My biggest problem is building an engine that isn't 'built' for changes. I would hate to freshen up a block when I stay with stock pistons which limit my choice of heads in the future. When I get thinking about internals, then I start thinking stroker. My BIGGEST problem is that I like power. The HP bug bit my years ago... I have no problem sticking with stock internals and stock heads. I just want to make sure that with the weight of the whole engine, that it can get out of its own way. I've never owned a big block before and so its hard for me to know how they react as stock. I believe my dad estimated around 1800-2200 lbs total with engine installed.

Many of the real 427 Cobra cars built by Shelby actually came with the 428 engine. A mostly stock 460 will easily out perform an FE and that sounds like a serious handful in a car as light and agile as a Cobra.

jruppert wrote:Paul Kane,

You bring up some valid points.  To be quite honest, I haven't really sat down to think about just how much power do I want.  My biggest problem is building an engine that isn't 'built' for changes.  I would hate to freshen up a block when I stay with stock pistons which limit my choice of heads in the future...I believe my dad estimated around 1800-2200 lbs total with engine installed.  

Not to push the iron head 100%, but I would think that if you installed such a 450-500 hp engine into the 2000-lb Cobra, it wouldn't be coming out of the car anytime soon...not for years and years.

Don't worry about your next engine now, focus on your current one.  ~475 hp in a little Cobra will be a hell of a handful.

If the pistons are in good shape, I believe those are some smaller dishes on those. I've got some from a 68, and they are smaller. Rebuild that, drop in a low .500 cam and it will run good. Basically what my old motor was, and it went low 12's at 3460#

Paul Kane wrote:

jruppert wrote:Paul Kane,

You bring up some valid points.  To be quite honest, I haven't really sat down to think about just how much power do I want.  My biggest problem is building an engine that isn't 'built' for changes.  I would hate to freshen up a block when I stay with stock pistons which limit my choice of heads in the future...I believe my dad estimated around 1800-2200 lbs total with engine installed.  

Not to push the iron head 100%, but I would think that if you installed such a 450-500 hp engine into the 2000-lb Cobra, it wouldn't be coming out of the car anytime soon...not for years and years.

Don't worry about your next engine now, focus on your current one.  ~475 hp in a little Cobra will be a hell of a handful.

X2

Sorry for bringing an old post of mine back from the dead but I had some questions and an update that I wanted those of you that responded earlier to give me your thoughts.  I havent done much of anything with the engine since the post was created.  The engine is a c9ve and is all stock as I mentioned previously.  This past week, I picked up a D1VE engine that has been rebuilt.  It also came with a set of D0VE heads.  The previous owner was under the impression that the pistons were dished.  The heads were bolted on and so I didnt bother to check.  Anyway, I picked up the engine for $500.  It also came with an Edelbrock 7167 cam set.  Once I got the engine home and out of the trailer, I pulled the heads off and found that these were not dished but were flat tops with valve reliefs.  The pistons are .060.  At this point, I am unable to tell brand or part number.  I have been unable to find anything on these pistons from top or bottom.  By the looks of it, I do not believe I am able to run these pistons.  So now I have to decide if I want to sell the D0VE's and the shortblock that is rebuilt and take the money that I will probably make, since I only paid $500 and rebuild my C9VE or remove these flat tops and get something different.  From what I have researched, it sounds like I need something around a 22 dish cut.  Does this sound about right to you?  I want to be around 9.5:1 so that I can run pump (premium) gas.  My plans are to port either the D0VE heads or the C9VE heads.

I have used couple sets of Edelbrock aluminum heads and changed the intake valves to 2.11" diameter with a 50 degree intake seat so. they could be installed on a short block with factory replacement pistons having smaller notches.

Worked very well and one of those engines just happened to be for a Cobra Kit Car with a "Torquer II" intake manifold.
The deletion of any front end weight will be more satisfying to the "fun to drive" factor than any comparable addition of power.

Edelbrock offers a large combustion chamber cylinder head.

I wonder if a set of d3's would work with these pistons.

jruppert wrote:...I picked up a D1VE engine...rebuilt...with a set of D0VE heads...for $500.  It also came with an Edelbrock 7167 cam set...flat tops with valve reliefs.  The pistons are .060...I am unable to tell brand or part number.....I want to be around 9.5:1 so that I can run pump (premium) gas.

Wow a rebuilt +0.060" 460 with D0VE heads and Edelbrock cam kit.  That's a really great deal for $500.  The pistons look like Federal Mogul hypers.

jruppert wrote:I wonder if a set of d3's would work with these pistons.

The valve orientation is correct and the chamber size will get you down to a pump gas friendly compression ratio, if that's what you're asking.  The other options are procomp or Edelbrock 95cc.  Any of the three will put you at about 9.5:1 to 9.8:1 compression depending on particulars.

The D3's will be limited by the OEM bolt down pedestal rocker valve train and any necessary porting.  I happen to have a few sets of D3s that have already been machined for 7/16" studs and/or porting (ie, can be finished however necessary).

Some enthusiasts might point at your D3s and chuckle when you raise the hood, but they might change their mind after a ride in the little car.  

Call or PM if interested.

What do you think these D0VE heads are worth?  I think I will sell..  I do have a set of C8VE heads as well. D0VE's shown below.

jruppert wrote:What do you think these D0VE heads are worth?  I think I will sell..  I do have a set of C8VE heads as well.  D0VE's shown below.

Did you pick up that other engine and the rest of the parts? I Would ask about $350.00 for a stock set of DOVES around here and be willing to take $300.00. They are not big sellers. I did not see the pictures yet. Big Valves guide plates and porting with decent springs and retainers go for around 5 bill most of the time.

I am sorry, I was in a hurry
and did not read everything. Glad you got it. Not Kali money everywhere Paul a lot of people beg you to haul off some of this junk around here. I let two fresh .030" over 460's go the other day but got most of the good stuff. Could have had it all for 6 bills if they were in my pocket, all fresh machine work, just spun a rod bearing on both in a jet boat, LoL.