Plan A or B?, can't afford C

OK here goes,

A) A couple month ago when I decided to upgrade to a 460 my initial instinct was to pick up a 557 kit balanced and ready to go slap it in and boom big HP right? Well I am starting to second guess that decision since I won't be able to afford the $3000 set of heads to unleash all the potential.
557 CI Forged w/ H beams
Lightly ported D0VE heads
2.19/1.76 stainless valves (I have been told it does no good to put the 2.25's in since they are shrouded?)
motorsport/victor intake
.750-.810 ish lift solid roller cam ??
11.5-12/1 comp.
If I go this route I would have intentions of upgrading the heads in the next couple of years. But that kinda messes with my piston selection now and limits me to the factory valve angles later on.

B)So I am wondering since I am limited to my D0VE heads should I just go with ...say a .060-.080 over 460 with good rods and light weight pistons, and basically the same as above but without the cubes and probably have close to the same HP? And more RPM. And possibly even take some of the money I would spend on the stroker kit and spend on TFS heads now?

C) Same as plan A but with TFS heads and a pro charger!!!

My question is, everything I can find is telling me that 800 hp is about the limit for a factory crank. That is about where I want need to be, however it will have a small plate on just for emergencies. So how reliable will a cast crank be at 750-900 range? And am I being too optimistic for that compression?



Thanks,

My little 472 is making 650hp on motor with a stock crank and good rods it also has 2 kits on it and it's holding up quit well... had a little scare the other night but all is well.

stanger68 wrote:OK here goes,

A) A couple month ago when I decided to upgrade to a 460 my initial instinct was to pick up a 557 kit balanced and ready to go slap it in and boom big HP right? Well I am starting to second guess that decision since I won't be able to afford the $3000 set of heads to unleash all the potential.
557 CI Forged w/ H beams
Lightly ported D0VE heads
2.19/1.76 stainless valves (I have been told it does no good to put the 2.25's in since they are shrouded?)
motorsport/victor intake
.750-.810 ish lift solid roller cam ??
11.5-12/1 comp.
If I go this route I would have intentions of upgrading the heads in the next couple of years. But that kinda messes with my piston selection now and limits me to the factory valve angles later on.

B)So I am wondering since I am limited to my D0VE heads should I just go with ...say a .060-.080 over 460 with good rods and light weight pistons, and basically the same as above but without the cubes and probably have close to the same HP?  And more RPM. And possibly even take some of  the money I would spend on the stroker kit and spend on TFS heads now?

C) Same as plan A but with TFS heads and a pro charger!!!

My question is, everything I can find is telling me that 800 hp is about the limit for a factory crank. That is about where I want need to be, however it will have a small plate on just for emergencies. So how reliable will  a cast crank be at 750-900 range? And am I being too optimistic for that  compression?



Thanks,

You can get pistons that have multi angle valve reliefs, but they are not the optimum setup.
Which kit is the best bang for the buck??

The only difference in A and B is the cost of a crankshaft. I'd take the better heads over the crank if I had to pick one but don't forget when your shopping for rods and Pistons you'll have more to choose from in the stroker stuff than stock. Good rods and Pistons don't care what shape or size they are,they still cost about the same.

557 with dual relief pistons.

If your doing your own porting, go ahead and put the 2.250 valves in. And don't get caught up in the only the exhaust needs porting. get the air into the engine. Port both and crutch the exhaust with the cam.

It will make power even with just a bowl blend and stock valves. Just add to the deal as money comes available. Build a good foundation first.

stanger68 wrote:OK here goes,

A) A couple month ago when I decided to upgrade to a 460 my initial instinct was to pick up a 557 kit balanced and ready to go slap it in and boom big HP right? Well I am starting to second guess that decision since I won't be able to afford the $3000 set of heads to unleash all the potential.
557 CI Forged w/ H beams
Lightly ported D0VE heads
2.19/1.76 stainless valves (I have been told it does no good to put the 2.25's in since they are shrouded?)
motorsport/victor intake
.750-.810 ish lift solid roller cam ??
11.5-12/1 comp.
If I go this route I would have intentions of upgrading the heads in the next couple of years. But that kinda messes with my piston selection now and limits me to the factory valve angles later on.

B)So I am wondering since I am limited to my D0VE heads should I just go with ...say a .060-.080 over 460 with good rods and light weight pistons, and basically the same as above but without the cubes and probably have close to the same HP?  And more RPM. And possibly even take some of  the money I would spend on the stroker kit and spend on TFS heads now?

C) Same as plan A but with TFS heads and a pro charger!!!?

Thanks,

None of the above ... personally, I would have the O.E.M. crankshaft offset ground to 4.140", buy 6.700" I-beam rods with the correct compression distance piston and have those pistons notched with both intake valve reliefs. Get it all balance and put it together.

Now you can use either type head.

That offset crankshaft will take a whole lot more than 800 horsepower as long as you don't have detonation in the running engine.

All good responses, Thanks gentlemen.

Smoker- what would you estimate your total Hp and weight?

How bad do you guys think the dual valve reliefs will hurt the compression now and later with the bigger chambers? Or do you mean custom machining domes down? I knew you could have that done, or are you saying they sell them that way off the shelf?

Randy, what would be the cost of all that machining/ballancing? By the time you do the machining, balancing and still buy pistons and rods wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy the 557 kit? OHHH Randy is going to cut be a brotherly deal on it!! PM on the way my new found BFF. LOL

Is there anybody on here that has the abilities to lighten a crank? And how much would that cost nowadays?

stanger68 wrote:

Randy, what would be the cost of all that machining/ballancing? By the time you do the machining, balancing and still buy pistons and rods wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy the 557 kit? OHHH Randy is going to cut be a brotherly deal on it!! PM on the way my new found BFF. LOL

These parts charges are today pretty much industry standard. Some places will be a little more on one thing but, usually a little less on another so, this will be about the total.

Forged 4340 rods, 6.700" long are about $400.00
Probe flat-top pistons for that are about $600.00; (machining valve reliefs is around $100.00)

Adney at Performance Crankshaft can cut your crankshaft offset for about $300.00

Balancing from all different places will vary from about $200.00 to $300.00.

Rings are around $180.00

Bearings are about $200.00

Then there is shipping to deal with

Total hp undisclosed

I'm weighing in at 2900 -3100

Ok, I took a little bit of advice from all of you and came up with this. Got in touch with Dennis At DSC he is sending me a set of prepped and shot peened 240 6.8" rods. I found a local shop to offset the crank. So with the money I'm saving on the stroker kit (comparing to a forged kit) Maybe I can get both. I spent a fair amount of time in the proven builds section reading over the Head flow data. Really good stuff in there. Guess my dad was right, he always said the D0VES were almost as good as anything else when fully ported, they're just heavier. Is there any one you guys would recommend for a max effort porting job within driving distance of Birmingham? (D0VE-C's) I believe I could do it but would rather pay for a professional finish if I can afford it. I'm afraid the shipping on heads may override the wash out in cost difference. For the right price I'd be willing to drive 3-4 hours one way just to give you an idea what driving distance is to me.

Still undecided on the CI at this point, either 520 or 540.

After a rod breaks and you destroy a cylinder head and maybe the block along with some other parts, you might be inclined to not skimp on getting parts which are barely adequate on the next engine build.
Though, you should have some good times until than.

They are 5430 forged.

I am with Randy on this. 240 rods where from back in the day when it was very expensive to get aftermarket 6.7 and 6.8 rods. If you use them I would go 520, no sense opening the bores out that for and not all blocks can be bored that much sometimes and should be sonic checked first.

Listen to Randy.
How much cheaper are those 240 rods than aftermarket 6.7 or 6.8 rod?
Not to mention the cycles they have already been through and the low power design of them. They are not a high performance rod.
Sure there were magazine builds back in the 80's that used these rods.
Now add the cost of offset grind and balance job. Add the cost of custom pistons.
I suspect a balanced stroker kit (crank, rods, pistons) would be more cost effective?

Just my opinion of course.

Stanger, I think that you are going to ask too much out of the 240 cubic 6 cylinder rods. and what makes me think that is the reference to a solid roller cam with ".750" lift to .800" lift.

In the late 1980's, we built a 515.5 cubic inch engine using the 240 rods (6.7947"). It was a pump gas play engine with CJ valves in ported D3 heads. But you are talking about turning a lot more RPM's. Randy''s suggestion was spot on. jmho

The more I think about it you are probably right. I should have stuck to my original plan and just bought a forged kit and been done with it. I may end up putting those on the shelf. Hell ! It was Randy's idea to grind the crank not mine. Then he went and got his panties in a wad because I did what he said. I bought forged I beam rods, they're just a little longer that's all.

Since it is my ultimate goal down the road to have a pro charger. It does make more sense to go ahead and get the bottom end built for it now instead of building a throw away bottom end and have to completely start over in a few years. When I am able to afford the charger at least all I will have to do is freshen it up a little. (hopefully). Although I do still agree with Dennis those rods would take 700-800 hp all day long. Doesn't matter not worth arguing about.


Since we're back on that now, If my block doesn't check out good enough for 557, would I be better with a 545 or back up to 4.3 stroke crank like a 532 or 521 since there is the possibility of boosting later on. What set up works better for boost? Long stroke or big bore/short stroke? I would think the short strike would be better?? Does it really even matter? Only 12 CI difference from 557 to 545, it would make sense to leave the walls as thick as possible for now.

Anyways Thanks for the input. I will keep you posted.

If it were me and the block would clean up at .030", I would go that way. You can still offset grind a stock crank and get long aftermarket rods that will work now.

stanger68 wrote:The more I think about it you are probably right. I should have stuck to my original plan and just bought a forged kit and been done with it. I may end up putting those on the shelf. Hell ! It was Randy's idea to grind the crank not mine. Then he went and got his panties in a wad because I did what he said. I bought forged I beam rods, they're just a little longer that's all.

What I said to you had absolutely NOTHING to do with taking any advice or not.  
Please point out anywhere I advised using O.E.M. production 400 connecting rods even if they are forged ... though from inferior steel and not a very strong design along with not being 6.700" long as the aftermarket forged connecting rods within the marketplace are.
"they're just a little longer that's all" truly shows your lack of understanding about what is involved.

I will certainly own any recommendation I tell someone.

If you can not handle the truth ... then don't post a question.     You don't need to preach untruths or misrepresent about what someone's disposition is behind a totally truthful post.

If your feelings simply got hurt ... tough $h_t ... acquire some fortitude.  Use whatever you wish but, don't get all upset when somebody says that YOUR choice is not very good.

Offset grinding that OEM crank would still be stronger than a lot of aftermarket crankshaft offerings; it was the connecting rods, (which NEVER came from any recommendation I gave), which would break long before that offset ground crankshaft ever even whimpered.

What's the application for.... we can speculate with what you have said but in the end what's the combo really for.

A cast stroker crank might be all you need if your only looking for 750-900hp and with a stroker you won't have to spin it as hard.

stanger68 wrote: Although I do still agree with Dennis those rods would take 700-800 hp all day long. Doesn't matter not worth arguing about.

800 hp all day long using 240 six rods? Really? Someone must be smoking crack.

68galaxie wrote:

stanger68 wrote: Although I do still agree with Dennis those rods would take 700-800 hp all day long. Doesn't matter not worth arguing about.

800 hp all day long using 240 six rods? Really? Someone must be smoking crack.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/85220/thread/1100568391/Drew+Backlund+540+Stroker+Questions I wouln't go that for and they used them in marine deals also. Reportedly the guy that came up with the 540 idea switched rods when the 240's dried up and better rods came along.

Randy, what I said was said in sarcasm. Hence the LOL smiley. Nobody's upset.

Since some of you insist on debating the rod issue. They will not break in the mid section as easy as a stock 460 rod for 2 reasons. (1)They are longer giving them less angle against the crank during the reciprocation cycle, (2) They are forged and shot peened. stock 460 rods are only cast.
These features combined with a lightweight venolia piston will in fact take a considerable amount of abuse. It is a proven combination. I wouldn't dare try it with some cheap o TRW or JE piston they're too heavy.


Here is a link to one of the articles. The dude does have a funky hair cut maybe he was smoking crack!!

http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/440299_1

stanger68 wrote:Randy, what I said was said in sarcasm. Hence the LOL smiley. Nobody's upset.

Since some of you insist on debating the rod issue. They will not break in the mid section as easy as a stock 460 rod for 2 reasons. (1)They are longer giving them less angle against the crank during the reciprocation cycle, (2) They are forged and shot peened. stock 460 rods are only cast.
These features combined with a lightweight venolia piston will in fact take a considerable amount of abuse. It is a proven combination. I wouldn't dare try it with some cheap o TRW or JE piston they're too heavy.


Here is a link to one of the articles. The dude does have a funky hair cut maybe he was smoking crack!!

http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/440299_1

ALL 460 Ford connecting rods are FORGED.

LOL, I love Randy,he's a cool dude. I can't wait till his midnight sensitivity seminar at US60 in june.