engine input needed, new truck pull class in my area thinking about competing...

so we have a new class in out for our local fair every year. this years class had some specs that really caught my eye.... could be a BBF ford domminated class if it holds.

Must be,
Factory rearend housing, factory block, FACTORY RODS. must run pump gas with no additives.
can be aftermarket cranks and pistons.....

Im thinking a 521 stroker would totally kill this class with the stock rods and the ford racing 4.3 stroker crank that uses factory rods.

anyone have any input on making this a torquey sob?

Those are some funky rules there now. As far as pump gas, is E85 considered "pump" gas? How are they going to check and see if you are running factory rods? Yes a BBF 521 with the old Motorsports crank would be a killer. IIRC it is an external balance crank, but very stout as it's a forged unit. D3 heads wth a good port job, to keep the C/R down a good solid flat cam, single plane intake with a dommie or a 1050HP Holley, and you should be in the money. Is this a 2wd or 4 wd deal?

Maybe you need to talk to The Mad Porter for some D3 heads. sounds like a good combo, a solid flat tappet would probably knock their socks off with that engine. Grind the rods for strength and if you could, get truck rods and grind them down (grind the extra casting off). ARP bolts, if you really want to turn it, 4 bolt mains.
As for the cam, this looks like something that would be good for pulling. The only thing is, what rpm's would you get it with those stock rods? With this you could run high octane pump gas and retard it a hair. I've heard this one guy say that he held his stock rod 429/460 at 7200 for 30 seconds in a burnout competition and nothing bad happened.
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2290&gid=248

Probably gonna need a custom grind cam for this application.

I think any 10:1 460 would be tough to beat with those rules, stroker or not.
I'm guessing the rod rule would be a protest deal......
what about heads, intake and exhaust?

what truck chassiz do you have or are you thinking of running.

That protest would get interesting in a hurry. I can just hear it now, the guy walks over and says take the oil pan off we want to see if those rods are factory.

schmitty wrote:Those are some funky rules there now. As far as pump gas, is E85 considered "pump" gas? How are they going to check and see if you are running factory rods? Yes a BBF 521 with the old Motorsports crank would be a killer. IIRC it is an external balance crank, but very stout as it's a forged unit. D3 heads wth a good port job, to keep the C/R down a good solid flat cam, single plane intake with a dommie or a 1050HP Holley, and you should be in the money. Is this a 2wd or 4 wd deal?

Buzzzzzzz wrong, the Ford Motorsport crank is in fact cast steel. but that is nota bad deal it can take a hell of a lot of power.... hell if you are gonna have to buy custom pistons anyway why not just find a Block that will clear .080 and build a 534?

Infact why not just get a 4.3 scat crank and use a set of SIR I beam Rods? I bet there is nobody there that will be able to tell the difference between 6.605 in length or 6.7 or 6.8 that is only .100 diff....


Randy

I don't feel the eagle sie's are any better than a good set of nonused up factory rods, the secret is in proper machine work and reasonable weight pistons.

Matt what are the other rules????

tiger wrote:That protest would get interesting in a hurry. I can just hear it now, the guy walks over and says take the oil pan off we want to see if those rods are factory.

usually with the protest deal you have to come up with some money first to pay for gaskets and whatnot. if you're legal and they're wrong, you get there 100,200 or whatever dollars.

If you came out with said 4.3 stroke stock rod deal, and you whip them how much you wanna bet the rules will be changed next year to favor the chevy camp?

Diggindeeper wrote:

tiger wrote:That protest would get interesting in a hurry. I can just hear it now, the guy walks over and says take the oil pan off we want to see if those rods are factory.

usually with the protest deal you have to come up with some money first to pay for gaskets and whatnot. if you're legal and they're wrong, you get there 100,200 or whatever dollars.

If you came out with said 4.3 stroke stock rod deal, and you whip them how much you wanna bet the rules will be changed next year to favor the chevy camp?

Exactly. The rules will not favor a Ford for long.......

Bill

Im going tuesday for a meeting to get all the rules. I do know this is ran by of all things a ford/mopar group of guys!

I dont plan on spinning over 6500 rpms. I would "cheat" and use 6.7 or 6.8 rods BUT i want to sock it to the chevys with a factory rod and block.

As for a truck, What on earth should i be looking for??? Must be a factory type frame which kinda pisses in my cheerios lol. Its open 2WD or 4WD matter of preference i guess.

Likely an F350 4x4 would get you the most HD axles and T-case, you should even be able to find one that came with a 460.

Bill

billandlori wrote:Likely an F350 4x4 would get you the most HD axles and T-case, you should even be able to find one that came with a 460.

Bill

What year do you think would be best? I i could find one with a 460 block that could be bulked up that would be pretty perfect, going to start digging around.

Found out they will have 2 categories for this class, N/A and power adder. also found out that there are a TON of head restrictions for all makes. More details on tuesday.

any 83-97 F250 or F350 is a good start IMHO
can find with factory 460's in them. The chassiz seems a little less cranky than the older ones..lays down easier.
there are a few different diff combo's that you can end up with but the newer you go with them the more likely you'll get a sterling rear.
front you'll likely end up with a ttb 50, or a kp60
the 60 is as good as you'll find for a front but a 50 front will work at an entry level for quite a while if you keep the hop out.
Tcase... later you go you end up with a BW 1345 or 1356. they're pretty good and have a nice ratio 2.62:1 (or so)
Trans.......lots of options but the T18, T19 are good from the earlier ones, or a C6 would be the things to look for. Zf5, would likely be fine too..
E4OD......i would avoid using one at this point. They can be ass kickers but the chances of getting a bad one in an old truck are pretty good and they are pretty pricey to rebuild.

Its also easy to find these trucks with 4:10 ratio's which is just right for final ratio with a bw or an NP 208 transfer case

Just curious ... FACTORY RODS doesn't stipulate that they have to be the same brand as the engine. NO cheating involved here.
An 8.1 liter GMC engine has forged 6.700" long rods with the BBC big end rod journal and 1.040" pins, which is perfect for the same pin bushing in the original FRPP rods.

Now we're REALLY talking about domination with a 557 engine.

rmcomprandy wrote:Just curious ... FACTORY RODS doesn't stipulate that they have to be the same brand as the engine. NO cheating involved here.
An 8.1 liter GMC engine has forged 6.700" long rods with the BBC big end rod journal and 1.040" pins, which is perfect for the same pin bushing in the original FRPP rods.

Now we're REALLY talking about domination with a 557 engine.

I like your thinking. Use the rules to your advantge.

I like this idea! That would really piss off the chevy guys as well

Got an update at on the rules.

Heads:
Must be factory valve placement on all heads. They have a parts list a mile long on heads not allowed, they apparently will be checking part numbers. As for material, they do not care. As the guy put it, plastic, aluminum, iron. whatever yanks your chain

I asked about crossing ford parts with GM parts and thats fine as long as i have factory rods and block. couple of the chevy guys looked at me kinda funny when i asked about that.

Chassis:
Must have factory frame rails and must be in stock locations. Anything else such as subfame conectors and bracing can be done until your blue in the finger tips.

Gas: must be pump gas. I asked about E85 and he said that can be ran. chevy guys started laughing saying you cant make any power on E85, cant run any compression

theres really not much past that, Intakes are fair game as well as camshafts and other goods of the trade. Compression is as high as you can get it. Also one more noteworthy thing to note, i am nolonger the lone ranger on this project, there was another guy going to run a 460 there and he and i hit it off pretty good, he didnt know about the ford racing crank or that you could take a 460 to 557 ci. He asked me if i would like to combine since im way behind on ensentals like you know a truck? So i think im going to start working together with this guy.

Idea number one for engine combo.
528ci
Fully worked over C9 heads or A429's
10.5 or 11:1 compression
custom solid roller camshaft in the area of 230/236 duration @ .050 in/ex with about .650/.680 lift in/ex
No idea on headers because i dont know if i want to breathe in my exhaust fumes yet or not
Intake may probably be a Blue thunder dual plane to help pile on the torque. Looking to run this engine from 1500 up to no more than 6200-6500 rpms. Carb somewhere in the 950 to 1050 range.

Idea number 2.
545-557 ci
Fully worked over C9's or A429's
10.5 or 11:1 compression
Cam in the area of 235/240 @.050 with about 660/685 lift.
At this displacement probably going to lean toward a the new trick flow intake. with a 1050 maybe 1150 dommy carb. Same rpm as combo one. this combo depends entirely if we can find a set of working GM 8.1L rods.

Any constructive critizism or ideas would be very appreciated!

dont forget about the rest of the truck

We have two trucks to pick from, an 83 f250 and an 79 f100.

I would go with the 557. But here are my changes (if it were my build).
1. More duration on the same cam because the duration on that is a bit low for that lift. Maybe, do you have a link to the cam? I usually judge by avertised duration.
2. fully worked over OEM SCJ heads should be even better because they are technically still factory.
3. Maybe look into 4 bolt mains and/or a block with thicker webs like a cj or scj. I don't know how big the webs are on your block though. Think about it, your going to be holding those rpms up there the whole pull so you want good rods. I hope those GM rods are strong enough.

I wonder if you could put Ford Racing stuff on it for everything, it is still the "factory".
As for the truck, I think the 79 has a stronger frame so.........BUT the 83 is an f250 so the frame is thicker than an 83 f100.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?photoid=223249&.jpg=
Those chevy boys don't even know how its done. They probably went back and told their buddies how this ford guy was asking some really dumb questions.
What kind of advantage should the E85 give you?

bb429power wrote:As for the truck, I think the 79 has a stronger frame so.........

The problem with the 78/79 frames the way i see it is, (i've been to A LOT of pulls) the guys running these trucks a lot of times have trouble getting the trucks to lay down and hook well. That basically equates to breakage....
I dont know if i would go so far as to say the 78/79 frames are stronger or not, but i know if you got a truck that hops, if you reinforce the frame you get a truck the damn near jumps.
my friend ran an 84 half ton (yes F150) c/w the TTB 44 for ~5 years or so without ANY breakage. He retired the truck and got a 1 ton chassiz without breaking once. The truck pulled real nice and smooth. Only thing he had to do was change the radius arm bushings to a heim type of joint. It didnt break but it was real jittery the first run out. after that it was good to go.
This is with a not real special 30 over 460 but still.

if he can run ladder bars and such i think that kinda levels the playing field.

Diggindeeper wrote:

bb429power wrote:As for the truck, I think the 79 has a stronger frame so.........

The problem with the 78/79 frames the way i see it is, (i've been to A LOT of pulls) the guys running these trucks a lot of times have trouble getting the trucks to lay down and hook well. That basically equates to breakage....
I dont know if i would go so far as to say the 78/79 frames are stronger or not, but i know if you got a truck that hops, if you reinforce the frame you get a truck the damn near jumps.
my friend ran an 84 half ton (yes F150) c/w the TTB 44 for ~5 years or so without ANY breakage. He retired the truck and got a 1 ton chassiz without breaking once. The truck pulled real nice and smooth. Only thing he had to do was change the radius arm bushings to a heim type of joint. It didnt break but it was real jittery the first run out. after that it was good to go.
This is with a not real special 30 over 460 but still.

if he can run ladder bars and such i think that kinda levels the playing field.

If that's the case, then get the 83 f250. I don't know if you saw that I edited my post before you posted this.

I would definately do the F250, because the engine is more forward in that chassis than the F150 by about 5" and this is excellent for a pulling truck. The F150 front isn't as strong and the Sterling rear in the F250 is way better than the 8.8 in the F150.

Is 1000 for the f250 to far out of line? It's a rolling chassis good body no engine or trans.
As for the cams, those aren't off the shelf cams just ballpark figures. I'd run cj heads if I could find a set that were affordable. I have a set of worked over c9 heads. I don't want to run to much duration as that will hurt my bottom and midrange.