Re: My midplate troubles.

yellowhorse7 March 5th 2014, 7:58 pm

I know that you tied ur mid plate into the dash bar (or around that area). If it's that strong why bother with limiters? I guess my question is that if you trust your mid plate to carry the tarns with no mount, why wouldn't you trust it without limiters. A properly structured mid plate will allow zero torsional twist.

Not saying its wrong Jon, just getting your insight. You've built a few, I've built a few. Definitely more than one correct way to do something.

richter69 March 5th 2014, 8:08 pm

Im sure the midplate is mounted rigid enough to keep it front moving for and aft, but the limiters on the trans dont hurt anything..... if it works dont fix it.

The way they are mounted like the ones in the pic you posted they put no stress on the case up and down...... which a reg trans mount and crossmember will do when used with front and midplates. Not saying you cant use one but if you do get a super soft deal, let the mount just lay on the crossmember, leave the nuts loose holding the mount to the crossmember......

Not my idea, this is how every MDRC car has been built ever since I can remember...... and again most of those cars are fast.

a stiff chassis goes a long ways in making it all work too.

DFI429 March 5th 2014, 8:13 pm

yellowhorse7 wrote:I know that you tied ur mid plate into the dash bar (or around that area). If it's that strong why bother with limiters? I guess my question is that if you trust your mid plate to carry the tarns with no mount, why wouldn't you trust it without limiters. A properly structured mid plate will allow zero torsional twist.

Not saying its wrong Jon, just getting your insight. You've built a few, I've built a few. Definitely more than one correct way to do something.

I'm no chassis guy, but what would plate layout & "torsional twist" have to do with fore & aft movement controlled by trans-mounted limiters? Speaking of which, they are of longitudinal benefit, not lateral.. Just sayin' Wink

yellowhorse7 March 5th 2014, 8:24 pm

DFI429 wrote:
yellowhorse7 wrote:I know that you tied ur mid plate into the dash bar (or around that area). If it's that strong why bother with limiters? I guess my question is that if you trust your mid plate to carry the tarns with no mount, why wouldn't you trust it without limiters. A properly structured mid plate will allow zero torsional twist.

Not saying its wrong Jon, just getting your insight. You've built a few, I've built a few. Definitely more than one correct way to do something.

I'm no chassis guy, but what would plate layout & "torsional twist" have to do with fore & aft movement controlled by trans-mounted limiters? Speaking of which, they are of longitudinal benefit, not lateral.. Just sayin'

It wouldn't. It was more a question of strength. Strong enough and it won't move longitudinal, rotational or lateral. scratch

CDMBill March 5th 2014, 9:19 pm

This my be more for me than the OP, but I also just bought Keith's plates after posting my question about mounts vs. Plates in the chassis section. I have an advantage in that I'm building my own headers but they will be rear exit for rules and street driving. During mock-up I've realized that like the OP my engine will be tucked up tight to the firewall to the point that I'll access the top bolts from inside the car. My plan is to section the plate on both sides, making detachable 'ears' so I can drop the engine/trans in as one piece, bolt up the ears high on the side of the bell housing, and then affix the front engine plate.

I look at some of the posted pictures of the fixed mid plates and assume that you guys pull the front engine plate forward a bit to pull the engine separately for the trans as a consistent plan. Is one preferrable over the other?

Keith's plate has ample width to cut and make the ears. Is that an OK plan Keith? I'm thinking three 3/8's bolts per side. and two on the mounts them selves with a support step/flange welded to the frame. I will also have a pretty tall notch on each plate, but I'm moving the ears up to keep adequate material strength. I will be running a trans mount too, with a stock rubber mount as this is a street car that has do 1,000's of miles.

richter69 March 5th 2014, 9:34 pm

my midplate stays in the car, i pull the trans and fw prior to the engine.......... my front plate has to come off too due to the angle the front bars are at....... my fault when I built it but was more concerned w the strut placement at the time. I also have to unblot the rack and move it forward a tad....... it is what it is, I built it for myself and honestly the engine only comes out every 3 seasons anyway.

cool40 March 5th 2014, 9:40 pm

I used limiters on the trans like the pics and one bolt pull out of the tailshaft.BUT my plates are very wide (chassis car).I still use them on the trans but also added them to the block.my new car has the midplate mounted to the firewall, more like a part of it.you can use the setup you have without the midplate just put limiters on the block where the mounts were.

BigRigTech March 5th 2014, 10:23 pm

I just trimmed my front plate in width so it could be bolted to the engine before I set it in, it wouldn't clear the strut tower bars the way it was. Surprisingly you can put my engine and trans in the car very easily and quickly even with getting the headers bolted up.

69F100 March 6th 2014, 2:09 am

richter69 wrote:my midplate stays in the car, i pull the trans and fw prior to the engine.......... my front plate has to come off too due to the angle the front bars are at....... my fault when I built it but was more concerned w the strut placement at the time. I also have to unblot the rack and move it forward a tad....... it is what it is, I built it for myself and honestly the engine only comes out every 3 seasons anyway.

Jon when I built the Ranger I have to pull the engine without the trans and front plate they will not fit throw the bars up front so I leave my mid plate and it holds the trans up when the engine is out I got the lineup pins fixed so they stay in the trans and not in the engine. I still have my trans mount but it does not have any pressure at all on it I can pull the mount by pulling the bolts out and just sliding the cxm out of the way. I run lock nut on my mount as Jon said earlier about leaving the bolt/nut loose they fall off Embarassed

then if you are using to hold the engine from moving forward and backwards things happen Sad

I fixed my mid plate is fixed so the flexplate can stay with the engine until I get it out.

DILLIGASDAVE March 6th 2014, 2:27 am

I wouldn't rely on any thin steel mid plate as for/aft limiter. It is sometimes done with a 1/4" thick aluminum mid plate as long as the plate it's self is real narrow and the plate's chassis mounts are real close to the side of the block (like a narrow mid plate in a P/M or T/S car with a full double frame rail).

I can see where having the limiters mounted on the trans tailshaft mount might not be a problem with a beefy aftermarket 'glide case/tailshaft. But doing that on a weaker OEM 'glide case wouldn't be the best idea IMO.

The Pro Stock guys use the slider trans mounts, but that doesn't mean everyone lets them slide freely. Some install a bolt through each of the tube/slider assemblies & tighten the bolts, some install the bolts but leave them loose, and some don't use the bolts at all.

Wheelie58 March 6th 2014, 5:54 am

Bill,i don't see a problem with that.Just so everyone knows, my mid plate is intended to fit many application as a \"generic trim to fit" plate. As you all come up with a specific need, I can make other part numbers to take care of specific applications. The bolt pattern is tweaked and perfect. The outside profile can be whatever you dream up. Several racers on here have sent me pictures of motor plates and mid plates drawn on bar napkins and we made custom plates. Some of those turned in to regular production plates.i have my own CAD program and can draw these things up rather quickly.Just FYI....oh...for those who prefer open centered plates with no starter hole..and recently with a 2/3 starter hole that looks good.so....don't suffer with a part that you are not happy with...just call me.thanks!Keith678-458-2033CDMBill wrote:This my be more for me than the OP, but I also just bought Keith's plates after posting my question about mounts vs. Plates in the chassis section. I have an advantage in that I'm building my own headers but they will be rear exit for rules and street driving. During mock-up I've realized that like the OP my engine will be tucked up tight to the firewall to the point that I'll access the top bolts from inside the car. My plan is to section the plate on both sides, making detachable 'ears' so I can drop the engine/trans in as one piece, bolt up the ears high on the side of the bell housing, and then affix the front engine plate.

I look at some of the posted pictures of the fixed mid plates and assume that you guys pull the front engine plate forward a bit to pull the engine separately for the trans as a consistent plan. Is one preferrable over the other?

Keith's plate has ample width to cut and make the ears. Is that an OK plan Keith? I'm thinking three 3/8's bolts per side. and two on the mounts them selves with a support step/flange welded to the frame. I will also have a pretty tall notch on each plate, but I'm moving the ears up to keep adequate material strength. I will be

running a trans mount too, with a stock rubber mount as this is a street car that has do 1,000's of miles.

70FB March 6th 2014, 9:44 am

Wheelie58 wrote:
Bill,i don't see a problem with that.Just so everyone knows, my mid plate is intended to fit many application as a \"generic trim to fit" plate. As you all come up with a specific need, I can make other part numbers to take care of specific applications. The bolt pattern is tweaked and perfect. The outside profile can be whatever you dream up. Several racers on here have sent me pictures of motor plates and mid plates drawn on bar napkins and we made custom plates. Some of those turned in to regular production plates.i have my own CAD program and can draw these things up rather quickly.Just FYI....oh...for those who prefer open centered plates with no starter hole..and recently with a 2/3 starter hole that looks good.so....don't suffer with a part that you are not happy with...just call me.thanks!Keith678-458-2033CDMBill wrote:This my be more for me than the OP, but I also just bought Keith's plates after posting my question about mounts vs. Plates in the chassis section. I have an advantage in that I'm building my own headers but they will be rear exit for rules and street driving. During mock-up I've realized that like the OP my engine will be tucked up tight to the firewall to the point that I'll access the top bolts from inside the car. My plan is to section the plate on both sides, making detachable 'ears' so I can drop the engine/trans in as one piece, bolt up the ears high on the side of the bell housing, and then affix the front engine plate.

I look at some of the posted pictures of the fixed mid plates and assume that you guys pull the front engine plate forward a bit to pull the engine separately for the trans as a consistent plan. Is one preferrable over the other?

Keith's plate has ample width to cut and make the ears. Is that an OK plan Keith? I'm thinking three 3/8's bolts per side. and two on the mounts them selves with a support step/flange welded to the frame. I will also have a pretty tall notch on each plate, but I'm moving the ears up to keep adequate material strength. I will be

running a trans mount too, with a stock rubber mount as this is a street car that has do 1,000's of miles.

I Have the fox headers and I went off the frame and up and over the headers. Maybe I can find a pic.

DILLIGASDAVE March 7th 2014, 3:10 am

I don't think it would really be all that hard to install a mid plate tubing loop/tree and just hang the mid plate from it's top side like some have done. It will add a few more pounds to the car, but it will also make the header vs mid plate problem go away. And if you also add one or two tube braces running from the loop/tree back throught the firewall to the dash bar, that's even better.

c.evans March 7th 2014, 6:53 pm

DILLIGASDAVE wrote:I don't think it would really be all that hard to install a mid plate tubing loop/tree and just hang the mid plate from it's top side like some have done. It will add a few more pounds to the car, but it will also make the header vs mid plate problem go away. And if you also add one or two tube braces running from the loop/tree back throught the firewall to the dash bar, that's even better.

X2, I like that idea.

Charlie

yellowhorse7 March 7th 2014, 7:44 pm

Like this...

My midplate troubles. - Page 2 DSC04197_zps1803f3741

DILLIGASDAVE March 8th 2014, 12:12 am

yellowhorse7 wrote:Like this...

And a car with lower HP/TQ numbers could build a similar, but "less beefy" setup that could use a smaller OD tubing size. Really just depends on the power numbers.

CDMBill March 9th 2014, 10:35 am

Any guidance on where that dividing line is? My pump gas 588" made just over 1000 hp last year and we think 1050 this year, and I have jets for the fogger up to 400 more. Current plan for spraying is the Wilson progressive controller I bought with the Wilson single stage fogger set-up.

I like the idea of tying the top of the mid plate to the dash bar/front down bars. One more thing to figure out.

Thanks for allowing the hi-jack BigRigTech.

BigRigTech March 9th 2014, 10:46 am

No problem, now that it's settled down we are all seeing some good idea's and discussion here. Pic's help a bunch. Very Happy

yellowhorse7 March 9th 2014, 1:08 pm

CDMBill wrote:Any guidance on where that dividing line is? My pump gas 588" made just over 1000 hp last year and we think 1050 this year, and I have jets for the fogger up to 400 more. Current plan for spraying is the Wilson progressive controller I bought with the Wilson single stage fogger set-up.

I like the idea of tying the top of the mid plate to the dash bar/front down bars. One more thing to figure out.

Thanks for allowing the hi-jack BigRigTech.

IMO you are close enough to start thinking about tying everything together. Less flex in chassis will ALWAYS allow the suspension to do it's thing more effectively

BigRigTech March 29th 2014, 10:09 am

I made up some templates to show Keith what I need my plate to look like, I'm going to ship it back to him Monday so he can cut a new plate. I'll make some 3/8 or 1/2 tabs for the frame rails that will have threaded holes to bolt the plate too. Wink

It will be just slightly ahead of the firewall. Pretty fancy drawing huh? lol!

My midplate troubles. - Page 2 021_zps744716ce

Wheelie58 March 29th 2014, 10:18 am

I have started the drawing already, from the picture.
Can't wait till it arrives!
Thank you,
Keith

BigRigTech March 31st 2014, 7:35 am

It's all packaged up for the ride, getting mailed today. Very Happy

Wheelie58 March 31st 2014, 7:52 am

5pointslow February 18th 2016, 3:25 pm

bringing this back up ,

was this mid plate used based off engine in stock location with hooker headers ??
i have hooker headers and looking at doing a mid plate with my solid engine mounts

i think i will run into same issue as you did

To add my frustration level is at a high ...... i know a front plate it most ideal , but i have already the k member with solid mounts and hooker 2 inch headers

plans are to use solid mounts with mid plate and rubber tranny mount

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