Hey guys some HP estimates

I am putting together a 4.3 stroke .040 over 460 in the next month or so. Just looking for some hp guesses on this cold winter day. Heads are Kasse P51 (already purchased and being touched up a little) the block is going to the machine shop this week to figure our deck height and be bored out to .040 over as pistons are going to be in the 12 to 1 area . Cam is a solid roller lift 735/692 lift dur 250/252. 105 lobe sep. I am using my Weiand tunnel ram (Ilike the old school look) and I spent about 2 days grinding on it so far. I have 2 750 Edelbrocks on it now. I am going to try a pair of vacumn secondary 750 Holley's when I dyno it also. The heads showed a max cfm on the intake of 371 out of the box so I am thinking it will be a bit better when Brian is done with them. The ex was 275 both were at 700 lift. I made the headers and they are 2 inch with a 3.5 inch collecter. On the car I have dynomax bullets (obnoxiously loud) but don't seem to slow it down. I'm thinking somewhere north of 750 but am I being optomistic? I also have a dual NOS cheater on this engine set up right now for what I think is 100 hp per plate but have never used it yet because the car is only good for 10.00 and I know it will be faster than that but maybe at the end of the day, who knows I might get my courage up and spray it. As most of the folks on this forum know these cars can be kind of violent if that is the right word. With the 545 that used to be in it it with a 1050 dominator and the super cobra jet (Kasse redesign) went a best of 10.20 at 133 with a 1.41 60 ft at Cedar Falls Iowa.

So the P-51's are going to be ported? That being the case it should be close to 800 plus but those 750's arent helping you out. They need to be bigger.

Dave De wrote:So the P-51's are going to be ported? That being the case it should be close to 800 plus but those 750's arent helping you out. They need to be bigger.

YEP ... I'd get another 1050 Dominator and use 2 of 'em on that tunnel ram.

I hadn't thought of that as I still have the dominator. I will see if I can locate one for a decent price and make an adapter for the dominators. As I have to buy a sideways carb linkage for the Holleys. Before anybody says that they make those tapered adapters to use dominators I went thru that when I dynoed my 545 several years ago. My homemade one exceeded the tapered one by several hp. The dyno operator just shook his head, made my day.

The dominator tops for the weiand the are easy to find

Never knew that I will do a search and see what I can come up with. If anybody that reads this knows where there is one please let me know

dfree383 wrote:The dominator tops for the weiand the are easy to find

The 4150 uppers can be machined in order to use Dominator carbs as well.

rmcomprandy wrote:

Dave De wrote:So the P-51's are going to be ported? That being the case it should be close to 800 plus but those 750's arent helping you out. They need to be bigger.

YEP ... I'd get another 1050 Dominator and use 2 of 'em on that tunnel ram.

I found another dominator on racing junk and it will be on its way in a week or so. Now just have to find a dominator top for my manifold. New ones, just the top are twice as much as I paid for the manifold when I bought it. So I may have to make one. The carb I have I bought many years ago when they were around 400.00 brand new. This will be interesting as I will be testing all three carb types on the same long block on the same day.

57ford custom wrote:

rmcomprandy wrote:

Dave De wrote:So the P-51's are going to be ported? That being the case it should be close to 800 plus but those 750's arent helping you out. They need to be bigger.

YEP ... I'd get another 1050 Dominator and use 2 of 'em on that tunnel ram.

I found another dominator on racing junk and it will be on its way in a week or so. Now just have to find a dominator top for my manifold. New ones, just the top are twice as much as I paid for the manifold when I bought it. So I may have to make one. The carb I have I bought many years ago when they were around 400.00 brand new. This will be interesting as I will be testing all three carb types on the same long block on the same day.

In my experiences ... the Dominators will produce quite a bit more torque at the peak torque RPM right through the peak horsepower.
AND, this was on two separate and different combination 470 cubic inch big block Ford engines using those heads.

It should be interesting anyway as I have never seen a test like this on a BBF but have seen similar tests on a sbc comparing dual fours and triple carbs and single four barrel. Can anyone of you guys tell me how the single four barrel has become so efficient over multiple carbs. At least thats what I have noticed over the last 10 or 15 years.

rmcomprandy wrote:

57ford custom wrote:

rmcomprandy wrote:

Dave De wrote:So the P-51's are going to be ported? That being the case it should be close to 800 plus but those 750's arent helping you out. They need to be bigger.

YEP ... I'd get another 1050 Dominator and use 2 of 'em on that tunnel ram.

I found another dominator on racing junk and it will be on its way in a week or so. Now just have to find a dominator top for my manifold. New ones, just the top are twice as much as I paid for the manifold when I bought it. So I may have to make one. The carb I have I bought many years ago when they were around 400.00 brand new. This will be interesting as I will be testing all three carb types on the same long block on the same day.

In my experiences ... the Dominators will produce quite a bit more torque at the peak torque RPM right through the peak horsepower.
AND, this was on two separate and different combination 470 cubic inch big block Ford engines using those heads.

Same here our EMC engine from way back was a pig with 2x4150's and a superstar with two dominators

57ford custom wrote:It should be interesting anyway as I have never seen a test like this on a BBF but have seen similar tests on a sbc comparing dual fours and triple carbs and single four barrel. Can anyone of you guys tell me how the single four barrel has become so efficient over multiple carbs. At least thats what I have noticed over the last 10 or 15 years.

Runner lengths in the correct RPM range and mostly tuning ability are the major reasons.

If I'm reading correctly you have a 523" engine, 12/1 compression ratio and a 250*/252* 105 LSA cam. I don't think that cam fits the rest of the package.

57ford custom wrote:It should be interesting anyway as I have never seen a test like this on a BBF but have seen similar tests on a sbc comparing dual fours and triple carbs and single four barrel. Can anyone of you guys tell me how the single four barrel has become so efficient over multiple carbs. At least thats what I have noticed over the last 10 or 15 years.

My take on it was that it was a lie by the magazines and manufactures in the 1970's-80's turned into myth created by the internet in the 1990's and on. I think the Clean Air Act and the EPA and Insurance Companies had a lot to do with it also. Bottom line single 4 barrels where easier to sell, market and tune and hide under the hood for the masses/street cars and therefore pushed to the top for all players involved.

One of the reasons that Dominator's, single or dual are said to have an advantage over 4150's of the same Cfm, is because the throttle blades are spaced further apart then their 4150 counter parts, which puts it fuel distribution closer to the intake valves, similar to the way direct injection does.

PS: All Research R and D was directed to Single 4's in a Nutshell.

57ford custom wrote:It should be interesting anyway as I have never seen a test like this on a BBF but have seen similar tests on a sbc comparing dual fours and triple carbs and single four barrel. Can anyone of you guys tell me how the single four barrel has become so efficient over multiple carbs. At least thats what I have noticed over the last 10 or 15 years.

https://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27500&sid=a21690b1571baaab88baf04326535b4b


^^^This thread was very interesting and semi telling when JMark and the Runner up won the small block shootout with The ONLY Two Dominators entered in it, ( An My Congratulations, Excellent Job ) Against all the other Guri's that showed with 4150's in that class (Small block).


I believe All that entered both classes or Just the Big Block classes entered ALL Dominators, ( In the BB class), EXCEPT The Two Winners of the Small Block Class, Which Entered Dominators in Both Classes.





The 4150's had to make a showing somehow and most (All Who Showed Up?) of the top contenders knew that but, knew that the classes both had to be filled for the Shootout to include 4150 and Dominators, to get both advertising. They also likely ( I would Bet on It ) knew what their Dominators could do in either classes ( Win) but, someone had to give to gain (Advertising BLP Holley ECT.) for all, I.E ALL INVOLVED Knowing the Dominators Would Win Both Classes Before The Start.


We will never likely know the whole deal, and my comment is not meant to take away from any of the ones that showed up to the 2012 BLP ShootOut.


Patrick at Pro Systems explained his No Show as to the subjectivity these kinds of tests very well in my opinion also, and Opted Out.


54 pages that Have Been Edited by SpeedTalk is kind of what I was getting at in my previous post about the Tunnel Rams and Dominators and The Advertising Market. Guy's Like Joe Sherman and many others always knew they were the Fastest Back in the Day and remained so until Pro Stock went to Fuel Injection, Nothing New Then, Not New Now, So To Say.

A Radial Tire Class Bitching about GMC Style Blowers Winning, By One Team, and Other Teams wanting a Rules Change When the Turbo and Nitrous Guys all of a Sudden Could Not Hang, Also should make guys wonder about it all, And Take Things with a Grain of Salt.

It's Racing, Just Like It Ever Was an Always Has Been, Big Egos Big Money and Big Advertising, Just Like Most Everything Else.

57ford custom wrote:

rmcomprandy wrote:

Dave De wrote:So the P-51's are going to be ported? That being the case it should be close to 800 plus but those 750's arent helping you out. They need to be bigger.

YEP ... I'd get another 1050 Dominator and use 2 of 'em on that tunnel ram.

I found another dominator on racing junk and it will be on its way in a week or so. Now just have to find a dominator top for my manifold. New ones, just the top are twice as much as I paid for the manifold when I bought it. So I may have to make one. The carb I have I bought many years ago when they were around 400.00 brand new. This will be interesting as I will be testing all three carb types on the same long block on the same day.

You are on the right track losing the Edelbrocks and Especially the Vacuum Secondary Holley's, They are good for Street Dual Quads, Not Tunnel Ram Race Engines and they went By By in 1969 when Double Pumpers and Dominators first hit the Scene. The 660 Center Squirters are the Only ones that Hung around on Small Blocks for Awhile. The Carter AFB and Holley Vacuum Secondaries are only still around for Racing is For Rules Classes like Super Stock and Stock and Street in my opinion.

I would loose that cam to, if like Lem pointed out it is on a 105LSA? Even if it's not I would still lose it.

Lem Evans wrote:If I'm reading correctly you have a 523" engine, 12/1 compression ratio and a 250*/252* 105 LSA cam. I don't think that cam fits the rest of the package.  

The cam is one that I bought last year at Bradenton NMRA race for 85.00 so I don't have much in it so it could be sold for something better. What would you recomend? and how expensive would a better one be and are they available? I want this thing put together and dynoed and sitting in my shop long before the season starts in the spring You miss April and May you miss half the season if it doesn't rain every weekend. Plus I have to do a little under the hood repair before I put the engine back in.

Lem Evans wrote:If I'm reading correctly you have a 523" engine, 12/1 compression ratio and a 250*/252* 105 LSA cam. I don't think that cam fits the rest of the package.  

The cam is one that I bought last year at Bradenton NMRA race. I bought it right so if you can come up with something that would be more approiate let me know. The last one that I had someone recomend for was by a member of this forum. Scott from out in Washington and we still have it in my brothers car (my engine) and it always worked good and the car was dead on. In fact he was track champ in super pro two years in a row at age 67

57ford custom wrote:

Lem Evans wrote:If I'm reading correctly you have a 523" engine, 12/1 compression ratio and a 250*/252* 105 LSA cam. I don't think that cam fits the rest of the package.  

The cam is one that I bought last year at Bradenton NMRA race. I bought it right so if you can come up with something that would be more approiate let me know. The last one that I had someone recomend for was by a member of this forum. Scott from out in Washington and we still have it in my brothers car (my engine) and it always worked good and the car was dead on. In fact he was track champ in super pro two years in a row at age 67

I still have the roller cam we used in Charlie's 470", tunnel-ram engine during those tests. Not much more duration than what you have but, around .780" lift and 110 separation, though.

How much hp did the tunnel ram engine make? And what kind of tunnel ram?

57ford custom wrote:How much hp did the tunnel ram engine make? And what kind of tunnel ram?

Finding peak horsepower was not the goal ... getting the best average power between 3,500 and 7,000 RPM, was.

The Dominators were worth about 25 average power numbers over 950cfm 4150 double pumpers on a 470 cubic inch engine using ported P-51 heads at 11/1 compression ratio..

And the power and torque of this 470 inch engine was ? The reason I ask is so I am not disappointed in the final result as this car will be shown once in a while but its nice to answer when asked "how much power does it make" to say "way more than yours" LOL. The car it is going in is the one on my avatar and it has morphed into a 98 percent drag car and 2 percent show. Shows are boring after about the second hour The car went 11' 0's on 596 hp with the 466 I just pulled out at over 3600 lb's The speed was 120 so I was somewhat in the ball park.

57ford custom wrote:And the power and torque of this 470 inch engine was ? The reason I ask is so I am not disappointed in the final result as this car will be shown once in a while but its nice to answer when asked "how much power does it make" to say "way more than yours" LOL. The car it is going in is the one on my avatar and it has morphed into a 98 percent drag car and 2 percent show. Shows are boring after about the second hour The car went 11' 0's on 596 hp with the 466 I just pulled out at over 3600 lb's The speed was 120 so I was somewhat in the ball park.

Dyno test it and then you'll know ... disappointed or not.
We could have made at least 40 more PEAK horsepower without having any concern for the averages or RPM.
It's apples and oranges ... my replies were simply for telling you a carburetor comparison.

I'd run the cam but I would do a lash adjustment. Get a baseline with the camshaft and after established, tighten exhaust lash only in .004" increments till you get to .004" gross lash hot. She will pick up each time. Once you have the last pull with the lash adjustment, go back to the baseline lash setting a make one pull for A B A testing. This will tell you what you need to do with the camshaft.

Thank you for this info I have never tried this as The last time I dynoed the 545 that I had, it had a Jomar stud girdle on it and they never seen to move especially during the short time that your engine is on a dyno test compared to actual race use. Very interesting.