anybody have any cleveland experiance

i'm rounding up parts to build my wife a 351 windsor with cleveland heads, it's going to be a hight comp. motor 16.5 to 1 that needs to pull 16'' of vac. with cast heads my question is what heads would be best for what i want to do 2v 4v i'm all new to the cleveland stuff...thanks

the 4v head, the 2v is not good enought for that kind of comp

i was wonderin if i should stick with he windsor heads? it's prob. going to be a all torque motor i dought it see's 6000 rpm since it has to pull vac? or am i thinking wrong? or should i stick with my original game plan? sorry thinking out loud thanks

do i want open chamber or closed thanks

Closed chamber 69 thru 71 heads the 72 models came closed chambers also but smaller valves. What cubes are you allowed? carb(s) intakes? Give us some specks on what you wish to do?



Randy

fatal addiction wrote:I'm rounding up parts to build my wife a 351 windsor with cleveland heads, it's going to be a hight comp. motor 16.5 to 1 that needs to pull 16'' of vac. with cast heads my question is what heads would be best for what i want to do 2v 4v i'm all new to the cleveland stuff...thanks

A GENERAL RULE , the Cleveland style 2V casting will offer about 50 horsepower over the inline counterpart. Given your engine speed, I would prefer the 2V casting. To achieve the compression ratio you mention and assuming "cast" is cast iron there's not many choices for a decent 2V head without serious porting. IMO, a small combustion chamber is needed to achieve the compression ratio you seek without sticking a huge dome atop the piston. There are a few 4V castings with small combustion chambers although I'm not sure the larger intake ports will be adequate at your target engine speed, and again there will be a need for a huge dome.

Just a question If I may? 16.5:1 CR and 16" of vacuum seems and odd couple, what cam specs are you allowed?

Dave.

Are you allowed aftermarket heads? or do you have to run factory heads?

Cleveland Closed Chamber Heads are 1970 to 71 4V only, Everything else is Open Chamber.

Their are Austrialian 2V heads avalaible and the have Closed Chambers.

Thier are Later 4V heads that do have the Smaller 2V Valve sizes and the are from 1973 to 74, They are Open Chamber Heads.

16.5:1 is going to be a very tough proposition with the parts you are suggesting, it not going to be typical backyard engine building.

If I had to use stock heads I would use the Aussie 302 Cleveland heads that are still out there. They are 2v heads with the closed chamber. I have seen guys get 250cfm out of these which is much greater than any windsor head. I would not go over 14:1 CR with any stock parts though. The cam will be so important with this combo. I will post the number of a good head guy with this combo when I get home later. I built one of these that made 655hp on the engine dyno. It was a 358ci motor with a 650 carb.

what kinda build is this for, 16.5:1? whats it going into, whats its purpose.........what kinda class are you racing is more like it?

http://www.powerheads.com/
http://www.tmeyerinc.com/

These are two very good choices for cleveland stuff. There are more but these are who I use. The heas from powerheads are very good for factory stuff.

1) Engine must pull 15“ of vacuum at 800 RPM’s
2) Big block engines in full size trucks only
3) Engine must be located in approximate stock location. Firewall will dictate engine location.
4) No aluminum engine blocks or heads (unless OEM)
5) Single gas carb limited to 4150 / 4160 (no Predators, Dominators, splits, or stretched)
6) OEM fuel injection only
7) Cast aluminum intake only (no tunnel rams or sheet metal intakes)
Open headers are allowed for competition

these are the rules for the motor. it's going in a short bed ranger i'm going to build a 4.170 stroke .60 over. with single plane intake. the only reason i was going to build it with 16.5 comp. is i have a good buddy that runs a jeep with a chebby motor with 16.5 comp. pulls 18'' vac. and it runs damn good it's the truck to beat in this class. thanks

with that much compression on a stock block that is 60 over you better have some spare blocks. you will split the cylinders. Please DON'T try to compare a chevy setup with a Ford. You don't need that much compression. The camshaft and carb setup will be the main factors in vacuum. If those are the only rules for the engine then yu are okay. A big roller cam and matched parts. With an actual cubic inch of 431.9 (most guys call it a 434) the 4v heads might be a good choice.

I would look at the CHI intake for the setup. If you haven't bought parts yet I might would like into building a 400. Those blocks are cheap and easy to get and everything bolts right up. It uses a BBF bell and intakes are not that hard to find now. You can get cranks for these and use chevy rod sizes. Custom pistons are the norm now anyways. The 400's are basically a tall deck cleveland block.

whatbumper wrote:If you haven't bought parts yet I might would like into building a 400........The 400's are basically a tall deck cleveland block.

The 400 block is an interesting idea. Zero decked & filled with some grout & a set of Cleveland 4V closed chamber heads (and possibly intake stuffers) milled .040" would give some nice compression numbers with a flat top piston.

Are intake adapters allowed in the class, or can the cast aluminum intakes be welded/modified?

DILLIGASDAVE wrote:

whatbumper wrote:If you haven't bought parts yet I might would like into building a 400........The 400's are basically a tall deck cleveland block.

The 400 block is an interesting idea. Zero decked & filled with some grout & a set of Cleveland 4V closed chamber heads (and possibly intake stuffers) milled .040" would give some nice compression numbers with a flat top piston.

Are intake adapters allowed in the class, or can the cast aluminum intakes be welded/modified?

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/Intake_Adapters/intake_adapters.html

or CHI has a nice 400 intake for C heads. http://www.chiheads.com.au/3v_manifolds.php

I have been thinking about this for a future project. I have a street car that is a daily driver that I was thinking of doing the 400 swap. I built one a few years ago for a guy with the stock heads that made 500lbs torque at 2500rpm. Dang. I can't remember the horsepower. It was pretty low. We built it to only spin 4000 rpm. The torque curve looked like this ---------------

yeah i know u cant compare anything to chebby but i know one thing when i bumped my 604 up to 16.5 wow. i was looking @ that chi intake last night looks like a nice peice...thanks again everyone

fatal addiction wrote:yeah i know u cant compare anything to chebby but i know one thing when i bumped my 604 up to 16.5 wow. i was looking @ that chi intake last night looks like a nice peice...thanks again everyone

I will say that my last sbf was ~775hp and we only had 14.5:1 compression ratio. The tuning window gets smaller with compression.

i built a 400 a few years ago with 4v heads that had the ex side milled off with big alum plates on them.i used left overs out of a clevland,trw flattops that were way in the hole so compression with the closed chamber heads was pritty low.super small solid flat cam 250ish@50/560lift.stock crank&rods with arp bolts,not a dam thing special at all.well maybe the heads.weiand intake/850dp.it ran 6.70s in my 2700#door car footbraken.then i put a nos big shot plate on it 400jets too,1.22 60'/5.78,footbraken. the best $for$ build i'v ever done and it's still together out in my shop waiting to get abused again some day.the 400 is a very overlooked engine that with the 4v heads can rely make power.the rules say "big block",why not a 460?

cool40 wrote:the rules say "big block",why not a 460?

big block in full size truck only. he has a ranger.

ahaa 10-4.recen who will call the 400 a bbf?

I haven't noticed and I very well may have missed if you mentioned the block, OEM or aftermarket? IMO, you will experience main bearing issues at the lofty compression levels you seek. The production 351W block main caps will not remain steady at the CR's you mention, and I'm not sure with the addition of main caps with extra bolts, the block has the material to support the opposing forces the main caps will experience. As others have (or may have) mentioned, cast iron cylinder heads and those lofty CR's are going to be a headache, IMO! I would also think a cam that would operate efficiently at the engine speed you desire will create tremendous dynamic cylinder pressure when 16:1 CR (static) is included, more than the cylinder walls may support as well the main cap's structure!

Then again, it's just my $0.02!

Dave.

whatbumper wrote:

cool40 wrote:the rules say "big block",why not a 460?

big block in full size truck only. he has a ranger.

cool40 wrote:ahaa 10-4.recen who will call the 400 a bbf?

You know that's still probably going to be a problem cuz after all these years some chebby guys still think a Cleveland headed engine is a "big block". Now just imagine even more chebby guy whining/crying if he uses a 400 instead of a 351.......talk about a river of tears & uncontrolled sobbing.

most of the cheby guy's wont know what it is if somebody dont tell them.

so a 400 isn't considered a big block? i always thought they was...yeah i'm clue less when it comes to building a small block. just thought the more comp. i could stick in their the better it would run...LOL. i'm still listening, and learning. thanks abuch guys.

DILLIGASDAVE wrote:

whatbumper wrote:

cool40 wrote:the rules say "big block",why not a 460?

big block in full size truck only. he has a ranger.

cool40 wrote:ahaa 10-4.recen who will call the 400 a bbf?

You know that's still probably going to be a problem cuz after all these years some chebby guys still think a Cleveland headed engine is a "big block". Now just imagine even more chebby guy whining/crying if he uses a 400 instead of a 351.......talk about a river of tears & uncontrolled sobbing.

well i like to make chebby guys cry if it isn't in the ''385 family'' ''isn't that the big block family 385'' i'll use a 400 instead. rules are ment to be bent right

Just remember to let those guys know that you can bolt cleveland heads on a 302 (or 5.0 for the real chebby idiots). Can you bolt rectangular port or oval port or peanut port heads on a sbc? same comparison.

I here people say the 400 Fords and chevy's for that matter are big blocks. Neither company made a 400 big block. Ford Big Blocks are the FE's 332, 352, 360, 361, 390, 391, 406, 410, 427, 428, and the MEL's 383, 410, 430, 462, and the 385's 370, 429, 460, & 514 crate motors.
(I have a 462 in an Edsel car and it is pretty cool.)

Chevy big blocks are the W's 348, 409, 427, and the Mark IV's 366, 396, 402, 427, 454, 502 (crate), and 572 (crate)


I have more useless crap floating around in my head than most people care to know.