I know this is a big block site but...

Ive got some cleveland questions.
what would it take to make a strong running 500 hp cleveland?
would like around 10.5 to 11.5:1 compression
kinda in a pissing match with another guy that says the only way you can go fast is a windsor or 5.0 and big blocks are a waste of money Was going to let it go until he insulted the bigblock.

I have a set of 351 closed chamber 4v heads on the way and a block going in for a cylinder repair.

just wanna sock him on his own turf. I was going to build another cleveland anyway because i need the car moving by the middle of summer and my big block will not be done in that time frame (unless i win the lottery)

forgot to mention that this ford windsor is in a chevy car....

you can tell your friend that there is no replacement for displacement. big blocks are great not only because of the cubic inches but also because the wider bore spacing allows for bigger better flowing ports.

as for building a 500 hp cleaveland. it can be done relativly easily. but as you know horsepower costs money. if the car needs some sort of small block to get it moving under its own power, than why not put a junkyard 302 or 351w (i have always wondered how much nitrous a completely stock small block can take) in it and save the money (500 hp is expensive no matter how you get it) if your buddy thinks windsors are the only way you can be secure in the knowledge that a bbf guy will prove him wrong (and an imprt guy, a chevy guy a cleaveland guy, a mopar guy and probably a few girls too)

meteor545 wrote:you can tell your friend that there is no replacement for displacement. big blocks are great not only because of the cubic inches but also because the wider bore spacing allows for bigger better flowing ports.

as for building a 500 hp cleaveland. it can be done relativly easily. but as you know horsepower costs money. if the car needs some sort of small block to get it moving under its own power, than why not put a junkyard 302 or 351w (i have always wondered how much nitrous a completely stock small block can take) in it and save the money (500 hp is expensive no matter how you get it) if your buddy thinks windsors are the only way you can be secure in the knowledge that a bbf guy will prove him wrong (and an imprt guy, a chevy guy a cleaveland guy, a mopar guy and probably a few girls too)

Im pretty far ahead on cleveland parts. just found a 393 stroker kit this morning in my storage unit that i bought over a year ago
reason im going cleveland is i have my electronic ignition from my big block that will fit the 351, headers, transmission and most of my other gear laying around.

BTW a friend of mine had a 68 302 running a 200 shot for a season
only mod was the exhaust. and a custom spray plate he made at his shop to fit the spreadbore carb.

I think the guys got a grudge against me. i had a 4v cleveland and a 2v which beat his fox 5.0

basicly need cam intake carb recomendations.

Easy. 500hp from a 393 with 4v heads.

If money was no object I would say the CHI intake but any Super Victor style would work fine.

I would go with a solid roller cam that is custom. It's not worth fighting the off the shelf stuff but you can if you want.

These motors like lots of carb for some reason. I would go with what ever carb you were going to use on the big block.

The last cleveland we built dyno'ed 620 with 2v closed chamber heads on a 408. We knew our horsepower goal and rpm goal is the reason for our head choice. With the 4v heads that you have you may just have to turn it harder but it will be okay.

about what range of cam am i looking at?
Could i maybe use a solid flat tappet instead?
I could run 2500-7000 rpm but 2300-6500 would be nice.
where would i find a super victor or do any of the CHI intakes work with a 4v head?

wish 460 rollers would work in a cleveland

Maddmattmustangs wrote:about what range of cam am i looking at?
Could i maybe use a solid flat tappet instead?
I could run 2500-7000 rpm but 2300-6500 would be nice.
where would i find a super victor or do any of the CHI intakes work with a 4v head?

wish 460 rollers would work in a cleveland

-I am not a cam expert but I would say in the .600-.625 range but duration????
-You can use a solid flat tappet cam but the grind can't be as aggresive.
-6500 rpm limit just makes cam choice more important.
-After seeing your goal RPM range I might would take a look at the Blue Thunder dual plane intake.
-If you have to send your block out anyway then you can make the 460 rollers work.(This has actually been an oiling trick that guys have used before in the bad oiling cleveland block)

whatbumper wrote:

Maddmattmustangs wrote:about what range of cam am i looking at?
Could i maybe use a solid flat tappet instead?
I could run 2500-7000 rpm but 2300-6500 would be nice.
where would i find a super victor or do any of the CHI intakes work with a 4v head?

wish 460 rollers would work in a cleveland

-I am not a cam expert but I would say in the .600-.625 range but duration????
-You can use a solid flat tappet cam but the grind can't be as aggresive.
-6500 rpm limit just makes cam choice more important.
-After seeing your goal RPM range I might would take a look at the Blue Thunder dual plane intake.
-If you have to send your block out anyway then you can make the 460 rollers work.(This has actually been an oiling trick that guys have used before in the bad oiling cleveland block)

whats the trick??????? i have 2 sets of rollers for a 460 laying around.

as for the cam would around .605 with 240/246 duration @ .050 sound solid enough?

That's a pretty good cam size. As far as the trick I am not really sure why they do it other than the oil hole is in a different place. Maybe Coug knows it.

probably what ill run then but maybe with a tighter lash setting. .026 sounds alittle loose

Flat tops on your 393 with the stock closed chamber 4v heads, good bowl blend, solid flat tappet 265-272 on a 104 sep with .650 lift ,old track dominator intake ported or something similar , 1-7/8 headers and a good 1050 4500 carb, your there.

JMHO.

When I built my 351c I used the weiand intake http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WND-7517/?rtype=10 I beleive this was the one built it back in 95.I ran the comp 292h cam i bought the k-kit that came with springs,lifter,retainers, and roller rockers, timing chain i believe or what ever came in the k-kit.I had the trw flat top forged pistons compression was 10 something don't remember but was all most 11.0.My 69f100 wouldn't hardly run off pump gas had to run octane booster with it I ran a 750 dp holley for carb with a 1'' spacer.Had it in my 69f100 it would run in the high 7s or low 8s in the 1/8 ran it 1 time at the strip me and another guy was the first on track that night. They turned the lights on and forgot the timer on after the 1st pass I put mine back on the trailer not enough stoping room for the 69 with man. drum brakes didn't want to stop to good.The guy that was beside me or behind me ask why I was loaded up I told him 1st they didn't have the timer working and the truck didn't want to slow down fast enough the drum brake was hot from the burn out and wasn't working good for some reason.He told me he ran high 7s and i beat him about 2 truck lenghs and I sayed and he ran 7,9s all night. But if you run the 4v heads I would subjest to put some good valves in it not the factory stuff the 4v cleveland will eat a valve in a hurry not very strong around the valve head at 6500 to 7000 rpms.Don't ask how I know just look at the pics




The top of the piston looks small in the pic but it is a .040 351c piston

Yea i was going to do one piece stainless valves. Ive done that on every Cleveland rebuilt. also seem to be lighter than factor

IDT 572, are you talking that duration at .050?

Maddmattmustangs wrote:Yea i was going to do one piece stainless valves. Ive done that on every Cleveland rebuilt. also seem to be lighter than factor

IDT 572, are you talking that duration at .050?

Yes

IDT-572 wrote:

Maddmattmustangs wrote:Yea i was going to do one piece stainless valves. Ive done that on every Cleveland rebuilt. also seem to be lighter than factor

IDT 572, are you talking that duration at .050?

Yes

How bad would my drivablity from 2500 to 6500 rpms be with that much cam?

people might argue but for only 500 hp the cam you have will work. for a max effort motor I would go more but you really aren't shooting for the stars as far as horsepower is concerned.

Don't over think this build use the parts that you have as well as a good mix of everything else that you need to finish it off. It WILL be over 500hp.

Im just stressing about the cam part. I can always swap intakes and carbs in an afternoon.

also alittle nervous about the pistons there flat tops. depending on how much polishing i do im going to be anywhere between 11 and 11:5:1

Maddmattmustangs wrote:

IDT-572 wrote:

Maddmattmustangs wrote:Yea i was going to do one piece stainless valves. Ive done that on every Cleveland rebuilt. also seem to be lighter than factor

IDT 572, are you talking that duration at .050?

Yes

How bad would my drive ablity from 2500 to 6500 rpms be with that much cam?

It will be snotty as hell........ But it will put your peak power at around 6500 rpm, and will need a 5000 converter

Whata bumper is right about the cam you have making close to 500 hp, but it will fall short making peak power at 6500. 500 hp with those heads and drive ability in most peoples view of drive ability don't go together.

JMHO

IDT-572 wrote:

Maddmattmustangs wrote:

IDT-572 wrote:

Maddmattmustangs wrote:Yea i was going to do one piece stainless valves. Ive done that on every Cleveland rebuilt. also seem to be lighter than factor

IDT 572, are you talking that duration at .050?

Yes

How bad would my drive ablity from 2500 to 6500 rpms be with that much cam?

It will be snotty as hell........ But it will put your peak power at around 6500 rpm, and will need a 5000 converter

Whata bumper is right about the cam you have making close to 500 hp, but it will fall short making peak power at 6500. 500 hp with those heads and drive ability in most peoples view of drive ability don't go together.

JMHO

if were talking about the whole slow off a stop sign bit im fine with that...... helps traction

anywhere between 5300 and 6500 on peak is fine for me.

found this cam

Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift 250
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift 256
Duration at 050 inch Lift 250 int./256 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration 286
Advertised Exhaust Duration 296
Advertised Duration 286 int./296 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.614 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio 0.631 in.

seems very strong for what i want to do the duration figures are perfect for a 4v head from my understanding and the lift bias on the exhaust side seems very good as well.

Matt on the oiling Mods just take a 3/8 line from the left front of the block next to the fuel pump entrance, and run it along the block deck surface and up to the oil port behind the intake manifold..... this will help aid in more constant oil flow...... don't go over .030 unless you have the block Sonic Checked..... and even @ .030 it is a good idea to check it.....

I built my own oil manifold in my Cleveland, 3/8 Stainless Steel Tubing going from the oil port to the back of the block and thru the China wall and to the valley floor and a header down the valley and feeds each Main by it's self............ That way the oil coming down the lifter galley is feeding the lifters and nothing else.....


as for the combo you have a 393 stroker already , go for it!!!! the Cam Blake specked it a good cam will be a little sluggish off the line but with a good converter and the torque of the 393 it will work out fine.... with 4v heads it will come alive.......for the intake I personally would use a Torker, unless you come up with a Holley Strip Dominator for a Cleveland.... but those are like looking for Hens teeth now days, and I don't think you want to pay $500 for a manifold, the Torker will help you off the line and it is good to 6500..... Clevelands Like Carburation, I have run 850's 950's and 1050's and they acted like they wanted more, everytime I put a bigger carb on it it Picked up...... Good luck.....


one more thing the port Tongues.... or port stuffers..... leave them alone they are a waste of your time.... I ran a set to try, not a single difference running with or without.... also open the valve pockets up to 90% or 1.97 with 2.19 valves just make sure it is smooth and no big steps on down the valve bowls....


Randy

the Coug wrote:Matt on the oiling Mods just take a 3/8 line from the left front of the block next to the fuel pump entrance, and run it along the block deck surface and up to the oil port behind the intake manifold..... this will help aid in more constant oil flow...... don't go over .030 unless you have the block Sonic Checked..... and even @ .030 it is a good idea to check it.....

I built my own oil manifold in my Cleveland, 3/8 Stainless Steel Tubing going from the oil port to the back of the block and thru the China wall and to the valley floor and a header down the valley and feeds each Main by it's self............ That way the oil coming down the lifter galley is feeding the lifters and nothing else.....


as for the combo you have a 393 stroker already , go for it!!!! the Cam Blake specked it a good cam will be a little sluggish off the line but with a good converter and the torque of the 393 it will work out fine.... with 4v heads it will come alive.......for the intake I personally would use a Torker, unless you come up with a Holley Strip Dominator for a Cleveland.... but those are like looking for Hens teeth now days, and I don't think you want to pay $500 for a manifold, the Torker will help you off the line and it is good to 6500..... Clevelands Like Carburation, I have run 850's 950's and 1050's and they acted like they wanted more, everytime I put a bigger carb on it it Picked up...... Good luck.....


one more thing the port Tongues.... or port stuffers..... leave them alone they are a waste of your time.... I ran a set to try, not a single difference running with or without.... also open the valve pockets up to 90% or 1.97 with 2.19 valves just make sure it is smooth and no big steps on down the valve bowls....


Randy

thanks!

Do you have pictures of the oil manafold in your cleveland? Just trying to get an idea of what i need to fab up.
the blocks going to get cleaned magged and checked out. I know im going to need to sleeve one cylinder for sure where the connecting rod detached from the wrist pin and scraped the side wall. Im very lucky it didn't go out the side of the block

Matt my manifold is a little complicated just run the extra oil line from the oil port on the drivers side to the top back and that will help alot....... Mine took some custom machining and lathe work to make, not your everyday deal......



Randy

will do. any other problems running 460 solid rollers in a 351 i should know about?
what oil pump am i looking for?

the only problem I see with the lifters is the tie bar will be farther apart for the BBF lifters than the 351C



Randy