I need some help. Engine keeps getting too hot.

hello,
My current engine is a 400, and will be swapped for a 460 in a few months, but i have a heating problem to solve now.
I have a 400, and it's equipped wit a aluminum radiator with 2 electric fan's.
Now, the last few months its getting hotter and hotter here, as does the engine.
I already hade some "check engine" lights lit at 210 degrees.
Now, the locas shop here claimed not to be a great fan of aluminum radiators, and stated that copper cools better.
So, i dropped in the old 2-row (1.5 year old) copper radiator.

What i also changed, is the rearend. It was a 2.75:1 normal differential, and currently it is a 3.25 trac-loc.

As water cools better as cooling fluid, i poured water in the system when installing the copper radiator.

I made a small testdrive, and temperature rises to approx. 240 degrees!!!


i figured, when having slightly more RPM's due the shorter ratio, the pump spins faster, thus cools better.
Also the drag on the engine is lighter, giving less to work for, thus less heat??

Wrong or right?


i'm a bit out of options, and i go on vacation on a 3000 miles trip within 5 days from now...

The local shop claimed the thermostat might be too restricted of flow. i would have to put a race type unit in it...

I'm thinking of removing it completely for the vacation...

Also: timing is a tad too advanced. Could this generate heat also? I thought only late timing did?
When it's good hot, it has trouble starting it.

On LPG i gave it 12 deg. initial advance, and a mechanical of 22 deg. at 2400 rpm, making total 34, plus vac. advance.


Does anyone have a good advice left for me?

I would put the aluminum radiator back in and pull couple of degrees of timing( I know LPG needs more timing but not that much) and drill a small hole in a brand new 170-180 degree thermostat that is a higher pressure rating. maybe add a pretty big purge tank too add some capacity. 400s are known to run hot and the open chamber 2v heads on the 400 are some of the worst sbf head chambers ever designed.

Does the aluminum cool better you think?
Copper is a better conductor to heat...
I was told that the aluminum's were used only to save weight.

The heads are crap indeed, i know.
Soon it will all be replaced by a 460 that's being built right now

i backed the timing a bit, and it runs a little cooler indeed.

there's one thing i just discovered:

A year and half ago, i had my heads off, and put them on again while not having a proper torque wrench. (i know, i know, my bad.. ).

Today i pulled the driver side valve cover, pulled the rockers, and checked head bolt torque.
As stated in "How to rebuild ford V8 engines", the torque should be around 130 LB/ft.
Now, having a good torque wrench, i pulled them at that torque, and i was able to turn every bolt approx. a half turn tighter before reaching torque.


Can this also be one of the possibility's?

Thanks.

check the flow restrictor under the thermostat on the 400 it has to be in..... if you are curious it is abot a 5/8 to 11/16 dia hole in a metal plate under the thermostat.... and it has to be in or the water will bypass the passanger side block and go strait o the radiator and cool nothing.......also what thermostat is in the engine?



Randy

Keep in mind while the rpms are higher and they ARE spinning the pump faster, the engine is also generating more heat from the higher rpms.

Having your engine too advanced will generate more heat, I have heard a good initial setting (on the balancer at idle) for the timing is 12 degrees BTDC. Try unhooking the hose going to the distributor and plugging it with a pencil while you set the timing. This is so you can set the initial timing without the advance effecting it.

I would not remove the thermostat. Did you also torque the heads in the proper sequence? I know I'm just checking to make sure though.
Maybe your heads and/or block has some loose metal flakes in it restricting coolant flow. That would do it, I know of a guy who bought a radiator off ebay for a new motor. It was clogged up so it was always over heating, he replaced it and it never even got to 200F again. Metal flakes could do that but I wouldn't worry about your radiator being clogged.

I hope this helps.

Randy, Justin, for starters, everything helps, even thinking with/for me already is great i think.

i will pull the thermostat tomorrow and see. i will take a picture of it.
I also got the advise to drill a little hole in it, to have a little flow always thru the radiator. Seems like a good one, always having a little flow of good cold water to the block.
Tomorrow i will also restrict flow a bit to the vaporiser, preventing it from getting too hot, and thus heating the incoming gas flow.

Radiator can't be clogged i think, as i get the same results with both radiators (the copper runs a little hotter i seems, or it should heat more due the rearend change..)

I torqued the head in the correct sequence, starting from the center, crossing in a "W" style to the outside. Torqued it at 130LB/ft. (Darn, it was tough! had to push it with the left hand, and eventually my wife helped holding it straight while i pulled the torque wrench )

earlyer on the day i already backed the ignition a bit, and it helped getting "less too hot", so to say..

Thanks for all the advice!.

You still have the fans on it right? Part of the overheating problem is probably the fact that it is only a 2 core radiator. I have problems with a 3 core radiator on my maverick but we found out it has a high volume pump on it, so its not getting cooled all the way since its flowing too fast.

bb429power wrote:You still have the fans on it right? Part of the overheating problem is probably the fact that it is only a 2 core radiator. I have problems with a 3 core radiator on my maverick but we found out it has a high volume pump on it, so its not getting cooled all the way since its flowing too fast.

not really true. most new two core radiators have actually more surface area than the older three cores.

yes, the 2 electric fan's. One really big, one little smaller, they just diagonally fit the radiator.
one is temp. controlled by a spal controller, starts at 50% at 185 deg. to a 100% at 200, and at 205 the second one comes in at 100 percent..

whatbumper wrote:

bb429power wrote:You still have the fans on it right? Part of the overheating problem is probably the fact that it is only a 2 core radiator. I have problems with a 3 core radiator on my maverick but we found out it has a high volume pump on it, so its not getting cooled all the way since its flowing too fast.

not really true. most new two core radiators have actually more surface area than the older three cores.

Yeah but can't you just get a 3 core in the same size as a 2 core? with the same amount of rows? What about NEW 3 cores? Just wondering, I'm not being sarcastic but I know it sounds that way.

You did say this is a 400 right? If so did you put the head gaskets in the right way. They are generally marked front and it makes a big difference.

dkp

well, it's been a while, but as far as i recall: yes i did.
If i know myself a little bit, i triple checked all the holes in the gasket...

Thanks.

bb429power wrote:

whatbumper wrote:

bb429power wrote:You still have the fans on it right? Part of the overheating problem is probably the fact that it is only a 2 core radiator. I have problems with a 3 core radiator on my maverick but we found out it has a high volume pump on it, so its not getting cooled all the way since its flowing too fast.

not really true. most new two core radiators have actually more surface area than the older three cores.

Yeah but can't you just get a 3 core in the same size as a 2 core? with the same amount of rows? What about NEW 3 cores? Just wondering, I'm not being sarcastic but I know it sounds that way.

not if they fit in the stock core support. most new 3 row radiators are the same size as the originals. Now I am emphasizing most here. I used to have a radiator shop sponsor me (before the state built a road over their location and the payoff was pretty good so he started a new business out of state) and we had all of these same discussions before. bb429power, your Maverick should not need that big ole heavy thing to keep it cool. when we were running our maverick, we used a radiator out of a minivan which was half the size of the factory piece. it had plastic tanks too. I have had the best luck running an electric water pump and electric fans on my rides that have a radiator and no thermostat just a washer with a pretty big center to slightly restrict the water. On my show car (57 Ford Fairlane 500) that I parade, I use a pusher fan in front of the radiator and plumbed a heater core mounted under the car with a small fan to help cool also. It was a lot of crap but I have to have it look original and still perform in the parades. You can't see any of that stuff.

yesterday and today i re-torqued the heads.
Just made a testdrive, and although it's now not as hot weather as it was yesterday, the engine runs a bit cooler. (not cool enough though.)
I rest in the fact that it also has to do with the different gear ratio, as i cruise normally at 2200-2300 rpm's, which is now 2700.
(although calculating difference between 2.75 and 3.25 should not differ 500 rpm's...)

one thing that also bothers me, is that when the engine gets good hot, the oil pressure drops quite a bit.
When cold, its 75+ psi.
up until 180F, it is about 50-55 psi.
At 210, it drops to 25 psi, and when idling at that temp. it is no more than 10 psi. (and i have a rattling valvetrain...)
i guess this all won't help running cooler either...

Instead of the Shell Rimula 15W40 that's in now, shall i exchange it with Brega Classic 20W60?
Usually this oil is used for older engines, not having enough oilpressure...
Now, my engine is old, and when very hot, has not enough oilpressure.


Could this also be adressed the 20-25 psi's when doing 55 miles being too little, thus generating heat while not lifting the valves enough?

It's all thinking in possibility's now.

When the engine is colder, i will exchange the thermostat to see if that differs a bit.


I was thinking to restrict waterflow to my vaporiser, which will provide a cooler intake charge (lpg colder).

i also could re-fab the stock snorkel to my air filter, and hope it will suck some colder air...
(i have a chrome one now in the center of the engine...)



Any more options?

Are you getting air to the radiator? Can you install a factory clutch fan and radiator shroud (factory one). From my experiance most aftermarket electric fans suck because the do not pull air accross the complete radiator.....

how's your fuel mixture?

i can, but....

i'd have to tare it all down again...

Today, i swapped the air intake filter on the center of the engine for a stock one with a snorkel, sucking air from front of the radiator, instead of the engine bay.

checked the thermostat, it's a 333-180 robertshaw high flow, so it's correct. Also tested it in a boiling water pan, and it opened good.

going to restrict the water flow to the vaporiser now, fill it up again with water, and make another testrun.

Well, i've had it.
Just made the final testdrive.
Now, in my opinion, i've done all that nature and physics need to have an engine run cooler.
Put the snorkel on, restricted the waterflow through the vaporiser, backed ignition, copper radiator, adjusted fans to rotate constant, checked thermostat 180 degrees, torqued heads, torqued rockers, filled with water...

still, it runs to 180 after 2 streets driving, and from 185 it sloooowwwwly creeps up to above 210.

I've really had it with the crappy 400 engine.

4 days to vacation....

i have a replacement car insurance.

I'll run the crappy ford and ignore the idiot light and have it run to scrap, i don't care anymore.

people are right: there's only one good use for it, and that's a boat anchor.

i've had it.

Air flow....... Your ignoring the simplest of simple...... Get the electric fans off and put the factory shroud and clutch fan back on.....

with the copper,or the aluminumradiator?

Which ever one fits the factory shroud and factory parts

make sure you have sufficient air coming thru the grill / openings and directed to the radiator.

Post some pictures up of the front of the car, the core support areas, radiators and parts you are using and how you have them installed.

One other thing comes to mind, do you have a coil in the lower rad hose to keep it form colapsing?

yes, i have the coil in, tried to push the air out today several times, and felt the coil. (so, probably no vacuum suction, as yo probably wanted to refer to. )

i'm going out to make some pictures now and post tham.

Thanks for thinking with me, really appreciate it.

thermostat and housing:



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cooling :
There is a small opening on the sides between the fan's and the radiator.
i hope it shows on the pictures...




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I had one of them thermostat's in my 460 and it would run hot sitting still, and it worked in boiling water. I got one of the older kind that has the coil spring on it and then it worked find. and like dfree said put the stock fans back on it. I put an 8 blade manual with super pitch fan on mine and and it works great. the stock fans are better than what you have on there now. my engine is in a hot rod and the motor box is only 1 1/2 ins. all the way around the engine and it doesn't run hot, 180 down hear in FL.

Keith