IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
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ragtime
WDR460
83-88T-Bird Guy
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IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
83-88T-Bird Guy November 18th 2010, 7:40 pm
Right now I am fitting my 91 Mustang Coupe for a BBF. I definitely want to run IHRA Stock Eliminator, but have 3 choices of BBF configurations. 2 Stock GT combos and 4 BBF crate engines.
The latest combo I have been researching looks nice, but I need feedback from engine builders.
The class is D/CM....
The engine in question here is an older Ford Motorsport 460 crate engine rated from Ford @ 535 hp. (See the scan of the Ford Motorsport page from the 2002 catalog below) The tech sheet below is fresh from IHRA tech.
IHRA has factored this engine @ 415 hp, and I calculated that the Mustang @ 3283 lbs (with me in it) would need 533 FWHP to get the car to run 4/10's under the D/CM index of 11.35. ( 7.40 1/8th.) (assuming a 15% drivetrain loss)
The cam only needs to have a maximum lift (at the valve) of .588 int. and .614 ex. Any duration allowed. This would be a hydr. flat tappet.
The c.r. would be 10.5 to 1.
The heads would be untouched A429 castings as sold back in the day from Ford's catalog, (I hope I can find some of those...lol)
Intake : Out the box Torker II (untouched) It is the best intake to fit under the stock hood.
850 carb...any brand.
Rest of the combo: 3500-4000 stall convertor, C-4 trans, 4.10 gears ? 28 inch rear tire at the shortest.
Could a custom grind cam wake up that crate combo ? (the engine will never be driven on the street)
The latest combo I have been researching looks nice, but I need feedback from engine builders.
The class is D/CM....
The engine in question here is an older Ford Motorsport 460 crate engine rated from Ford @ 535 hp. (See the scan of the Ford Motorsport page from the 2002 catalog below) The tech sheet below is fresh from IHRA tech.
IHRA has factored this engine @ 415 hp, and I calculated that the Mustang @ 3283 lbs (with me in it) would need 533 FWHP to get the car to run 4/10's under the D/CM index of 11.35. ( 7.40 1/8th.) (assuming a 15% drivetrain loss)
The cam only needs to have a maximum lift (at the valve) of .588 int. and .614 ex. Any duration allowed. This would be a hydr. flat tappet.
The c.r. would be 10.5 to 1.
The heads would be untouched A429 castings as sold back in the day from Ford's catalog, (I hope I can find some of those...lol)
Intake : Out the box Torker II (untouched) It is the best intake to fit under the stock hood.
850 carb...any brand.
Rest of the combo: 3500-4000 stall convertor, C-4 trans, 4.10 gears ? 28 inch rear tire at the shortest.
Could a custom grind cam wake up that crate combo ? (the engine will never be driven on the street)
83-88T-Bird Guy- Posts : 1003
Join date : 2008-12-03
Age : 109
Location : Bardstown, KY
Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
WDR460 November 18th 2010, 8:11 pm
This is the exact engine I ran in My Aussie Ford Fairlane for three years with a 930 cfm BG Silverclaw carb on Premium pump gas. I ordered it from Ford and did not change a thing. It was a green new block , same hyd cam , hyper pistons , unported A429's , victor 4150 manifold . All as it came in the crate.
The engine liked around 38* timing and lots of fuel ( I had 95s in the front and 102's in the back ).
Car was 3750lbs with me in it , non-transbrake C6 , 4200 RPM converter , 4.11 : 1 9" , 28x10x15 Mickeys ET Drag . The single worst part about my combo was that it had very restrictive tri-y headers , 1 7/8 primary and 2 1/2 collector , and the primaries were welded on the flange at 45* , vertually cutting off the port. Just couldnt get someone to make a set of good ones for me.
Best i went was 11.32 at 121mph I think . With a lighter more streamlined car and a good set of headers, you might get there. I took this engine to 7000rpm for over 200 passes.
Dont know how to insert photos , so i will change my profile picture to the old car.
John
The engine liked around 38* timing and lots of fuel ( I had 95s in the front and 102's in the back ).
Car was 3750lbs with me in it , non-transbrake C6 , 4200 RPM converter , 4.11 : 1 9" , 28x10x15 Mickeys ET Drag . The single worst part about my combo was that it had very restrictive tri-y headers , 1 7/8 primary and 2 1/2 collector , and the primaries were welded on the flange at 45* , vertually cutting off the port. Just couldnt get someone to make a set of good ones for me.
Best i went was 11.32 at 121mph I think . With a lighter more streamlined car and a good set of headers, you might get there. I took this engine to 7000rpm for over 200 passes.
Dont know how to insert photos , so i will change my profile picture to the old car.
John
WDR460- Posts : 9
Join date : 2009-11-08
Location : Perth, Western Australia
Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
ragtime November 28th 2010, 8:52 pm
this may be a bit of a hijack... but i also run this motor and was hoping to keep this going with others that might also have this motor and could add there experiance. sooooooo... lovin this motor. thanks
ragtime- Posts : 36
Join date : 2010-11-28
Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
83-88T-Bird Guy November 29th 2010, 8:35 pm
I find it amazing that IHRA factors the X head 392 W @ 405 hp and the above 460 CJ w/A429 heads @ 415hp.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10757
I did find a piston co. that can take a shelf piston and make some 16cc dish forged pistons to fit a 6.605 rod.
Best I can tell Ford no longer sells those dish pistons that originally came on the 460 crates.
The rules say the pistons have to have a 16cc dish plus or minus 1 cc and that the dish must be between .090" and .100". No where does it say what SHAPE the dish should be.
I got the 1.5 inch k-frame spacers in this weekend and set the block down and back against the firewall. Some final adjustments using offset steering rack bushings and then I will finish the solid pedestal mounts.
.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10757
I did find a piston co. that can take a shelf piston and make some 16cc dish forged pistons to fit a 6.605 rod.
Best I can tell Ford no longer sells those dish pistons that originally came on the 460 crates.
The rules say the pistons have to have a 16cc dish plus or minus 1 cc and that the dish must be between .090" and .100". No where does it say what SHAPE the dish should be.
I got the 1.5 inch k-frame spacers in this weekend and set the block down and back against the firewall. Some final adjustments using offset steering rack bushings and then I will finish the solid pedestal mounts.
.
83-88T-Bird Guy- Posts : 1003
Join date : 2008-12-03
Age : 109
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Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
rmcomprandy November 30th 2010, 10:47 am
The piston which FRPP used in this motor is a "shelf" piston which had one intake notch made a larger diameter foir intake valve clearance; after machining, there were now lefts and rights. Installing the pistons in the opposite bank will make about 10 more horsepower but, they will have more audible piston slap.
That piston was a Federal-Mogul #H612P. It is the replacement for the 90's light trucks and uses metric rings.
Installing a lower tension oil ring expander; (about 11 pounds pull) will add another 10 horsepower at the flywheel.
This engine will easily make just under 600 horsepower with the parts it came with, (including the C460 camshaft), however, your intake manifold selection will lose 50 back. Machine the VICTOR carb pad on a 3.5 degree angle ... when the engine is installed in a Mustang with the Hooker motor mounts and headers, a 950HP carb without an air cleaner will easily clear the stock hood.
EDIT: Oh yea, looking at the IHRA tech sheet ... you're going to need to cut the head diameter down on the exhaust valve .010" because they came at 1.760" diameter.
That piston was a Federal-Mogul #H612P. It is the replacement for the 90's light trucks and uses metric rings.
Installing a lower tension oil ring expander; (about 11 pounds pull) will add another 10 horsepower at the flywheel.
This engine will easily make just under 600 horsepower with the parts it came with, (including the C460 camshaft), however, your intake manifold selection will lose 50 back. Machine the VICTOR carb pad on a 3.5 degree angle ... when the engine is installed in a Mustang with the Hooker motor mounts and headers, a 950HP carb without an air cleaner will easily clear the stock hood.
EDIT: Oh yea, looking at the IHRA tech sheet ... you're going to need to cut the head diameter down on the exhaust valve .010" because they came at 1.760" diameter.
rmcomprandy- Posts : 6155
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan -
Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
TorinoGT November 30th 2010, 12:53 pm
rmcomprandy wrote: Machine the VICTOR carb pad on a 3.5 degree angle ...
sorry for the newb question... when you machine the carb pad (at a diffrnt angle, or flat) what do you do to fix the bolt hole angle? fill them in via welding? then drill new holes? use some kinda angle washers?
Shane
TorinoGT- Posts : 174
Join date : 2009-08-13
Location : Metro Detroit
Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
83-88T-Bird Guy November 30th 2010, 7:06 pm
rmcomprandy wrote:The piston which FRPP used in this motor is a "shelf" piston which had one intake notch made a larger diameter foir intake valve clearance; after machining, there were now lefts and rights. Installing the pistons in the opposite bank will make about 10 more horsepower but, they will have more audible piston slap.
That piston was a Federal-Mogul #H612P. It is the replacement for the 90's light trucks and uses metric rings.
Installing a lower tension oil ring expander; (about 11 pounds pull) will add another 10 horsepower at the flywheel.
This engine will easily make just under 600 horsepower with the parts it came with, (including the C460 camshaft), however, your intake manifold selection will lose 50 back. Machine the VICTOR carb pad on a 3.5 degree angle ... when the engine is installed in a Mustang with the Hooker motor mounts and headers, a 950HP carb without an air cleaner will easily clear the stock hood.
EDIT: Oh yea, looking at the IHRA tech sheet ... you're going to need to cut the head diameter down on the exhaust valve .010" because they came at 1.760" diameter.
Thanks Randy for pointing out the ex. valve diameter deal.
The big blocks in Crate Motor can only run a 850 cfm carb.
Interesting about the "switching sides" with the pistons picks up power.
I wonder how IHRA tech would feel about machining down the carb pad, because I understood that the intake must be un-altered and out of the box shape.
Thanks for the tips !
83-88T-Bird Guy- Posts : 1003
Join date : 2008-12-03
Age : 109
Location : Bardstown, KY
Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
ragtime November 30th 2010, 9:25 pm
rmcomprandy wrote:The piston which FRPP used in this motor is a "shelf" piston which had one intake notch made a larger diameter foir intake valve clearance; after machining, there were now lefts and rights. Installing the pistons in the opposite bank will make about 10 more horsepower but, they will have more audible piston slap.
That piston was a Federal-Mogul #H612P. It is the replacement for the 90's light trucks and uses metric rings.
Installing a lower tension oil ring expander; (about 11 pounds pull) will add another 10 horsepower at the flywheel.
This engine will easily make just under 600 horsepower with the parts it came with, (including the C460 camshaft), however, your intake manifold selection will lose 50 back. Machine the VICTOR carb pad on a 3.5 degree angle ... when the engine is installed in a Mustang with the Hooker motor mounts and headers, a 950HP carb without an air cleaner will easily clear the stock hood.
EDIT: Oh yea, looking at the IHRA tech sheet ... you're going to need to cut the head diameter down on the exhaust valve .010" because they came at 1.760" diameter.
Last edited by ragtime on November 30th 2010, 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : not write)
ragtime- Posts : 36
Join date : 2010-11-28
Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
ragtime November 30th 2010, 9:29 pm
thanks for the information...
ragtime- Posts : 36
Join date : 2010-11-28
Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
bigblok2000ranger December 13th 2010, 5:25 pm
Couple questions,
1. Can you run any type of carb spacer?
If so you could use a spacer to get the 3.5* that Randy suggested
2. Does the carb have to be actual 850cfm or can you run a modified 850cfm as long as the list number still comes back to an 850?
If you can modify the carb I would see who can do the work to make it flow more air and set it up for your combo. (like BG used to do) I don't remember for sure but running a 950 throttle plate or larger under the 850 main body may be how Holley came up with the 1000hp. I know it was a matter of using parts they already had but netted more airflow.
1. Can you run any type of carb spacer?
If so you could use a spacer to get the 3.5* that Randy suggested
2. Does the carb have to be actual 850cfm or can you run a modified 850cfm as long as the list number still comes back to an 850?
If you can modify the carb I would see who can do the work to make it flow more air and set it up for your combo. (like BG used to do) I don't remember for sure but running a 950 throttle plate or larger under the 850 main body may be how Holley came up with the 1000hp. I know it was a matter of using parts they already had but netted more airflow.
bigblok2000ranger- Posts : 1745
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Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
rmcomprandy December 13th 2010, 6:24 pm
The 950HP carb is simply a regular 750 cfm main body size with the casting having a different, higher flowing entrance shape and the idle fuel passages relocated slightly. They use an 850 cfm throttle body.
A #4781, 850 cfm will be plenty of carb.
Machining the manifold carb base to a different angle is done to be able to get it AND the carb under a stock hood with ample clearance above. (.350" in the front to "0" in the rear). An angled spacer will do no good for hood clearance by raising the rear of the carb that amount.
Mounting a carb like the #4781 - 850 cfm, which still has a choke horn, BACKWARDS on an unmodified Victor manifold carb flange and then using a bellcrank for the throttle, (like the dual quad and tri-power Ford set-ups used), will also fit under a stock hoodline with enough clearance above the carb air entrance.
When machining a manifold carb flange to 3.5°, the stud angle being different will make very little difference when they are kept to less than an inch long.
A "custom" hydraulic camshaft using those lift figures WILL add some horsepower.
A #4781, 850 cfm will be plenty of carb.
Machining the manifold carb base to a different angle is done to be able to get it AND the carb under a stock hood with ample clearance above. (.350" in the front to "0" in the rear). An angled spacer will do no good for hood clearance by raising the rear of the carb that amount.
Mounting a carb like the #4781 - 850 cfm, which still has a choke horn, BACKWARDS on an unmodified Victor manifold carb flange and then using a bellcrank for the throttle, (like the dual quad and tri-power Ford set-ups used), will also fit under a stock hoodline with enough clearance above the carb air entrance.
When machining a manifold carb flange to 3.5°, the stud angle being different will make very little difference when they are kept to less than an inch long.
A "custom" hydraulic camshaft using those lift figures WILL add some horsepower.
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Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
BIGDOG466 December 13th 2010, 6:55 pm
What fuel are you limited too?
BIGDOG466- Posts : 265
Join date : 2009-08-12
Location : Indy
Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
bigblok2000ranger December 14th 2010, 12:31 am
Ok I mis-understood or actually thought that there was a performance reason for the carb angle change. I looked back at your post and noticed it was for hood clearance. I have seen (I believe they were actually Ford pieces) factory angled carb spacers. I believe the one I seen was .500" at the rear and .200" at the front.
bigblok2000ranger- Posts : 1745
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Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
TorinoGT December 14th 2010, 12:16 pm
rmcomprandy wrote:Machining the manifold carb base to a different angle is done to be able to get it AND the carb under a stock hood with ample clearance above. (.350" in the front to "0" in the rear). An angled spacer will do no good for hood clearance by raising the rear of the carb that amount.
When machining a manifold carb flange to 3.5°, the stud angle being different will make very little difference when they are kept to less than an inch long.
Makes sence, so a intake with the carb flange machined to a diffrnt angle, will work "ok" untill you start using large spacers.
TorinoGT- Posts : 174
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Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
83-88T-Bird Guy December 15th 2010, 8:45 pm
bigblok2000ranger wrote:Couple questions,
1. Can you run any type of carb spacer?
2. Does the carb have to be actual 850cfm or can you run a modified 850cfm as long as the list number still comes back to an 850?
Maximum carb spacer thickness is 1.0 "
Not sure about the carb beeing an actual out of the box 850 or if it has to have 850 throttle plates.
I'll ask over on class racer.
83-88T-Bird Guy- Posts : 1003
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Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
83-88T-Bird Guy December 15th 2010, 8:47 pm
BIGDOG466 wrote:What fuel are you limited too?
I believe racing fuel only.
I had an NHRA racer tell me that pump gas is illegal in NHRA Stock. I was suprised to hear that.
I'll have to see what IHRA says.
83-88T-Bird Guy- Posts : 1003
Join date : 2008-12-03
Age : 109
Location : Bardstown, KY
Re: IHRA Crate engine build...old 460/535 hp combo....opinions from engine builders on this setup
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