video mechanical injected q16

Get the mixture right and it will straighten-out ... excess fuel in different cylinders is skewing the temps.

Sounds like you might need slightly smaller injectors.

Getting the high speed by-pass correct will be more necessary with gasoline.

That's why alcohol is so attractive to those who really are not very adept at tuning ... with alcohol you only need to be close.

cool40 wrote:

bb429power wrote:

cool40 wrote:

Lem Evans wrote:

cool40 wrote:take er down the road and see what it does.

So...you are a street racer?

no, but i do road test from time to time. i retired from street racing a few years ago.

Lucky s.o.b, I can't even idle the maverick with open headers in the driveway, without my whiny 4'2 nosy azz neighbor calling the po po on me. In the middle of a work day!!!

somebody always calls the po po on me too but they take so long to show up i'm in the bat cave with it cooled off!

The police station is pretty much like just under 1/4th mile away lol...It still takes em a while. I was laughing a ton because I had just put the car away, shut the garage and stepped inside the house when they rolled by. They couldn't do nothin

rmcomprandy wrote:That's why alcohol is so attractive to those who really are not very adept at tuning ... with alcohol you only need to be close.

Hahaha, that some funny shit right there. I have gone to 3 day events and my car never moved more that .02 from start to finish. Must have been the piss poor tune up.

Curt wrote:

rmcomprandy wrote:That's why alcohol is so attractive to those who really are not very adept at tuning ... with alcohol you only need to be close.

Hahaha, that some funny shit right there. I have gone to 3 day events and my car never moved more that .02 from start to finish. Must have been the piss poor tune up.

No ... it wasn't the "piss poor tune-up" ... just the simple fact that the alcohol is so forgiving to weather conditions and does not require the tune-up to be as exact as with gasoline. That you don't accept, (or maybe you don't understand), that fact certainly tells a lot.

Curt I did not start this thread to cause another war on gas v/s alcohol.

I will stand firm on my opinion that methanol is the best fuel to run in my opinion for a bracket racing application because of it being as Randy stated more forgiving on weather changes and the convenience of your engine not getting as hot in late rounds and round robbin like they do to you at nmra events etc.

What I am looking at here is maximum performance, as you know I have used m-5 and nitro mixed with methanol.I lifted a cylinder head with the nitro.

My first priority was to figure out why, I have talked to several (as what I feel are very good) tuners on this forum that I know and they can identify themselves if they want not getting in that bag of worms because none of them were flexing their muscles I told ya so or vise versa. I even talked to some of Kaase's guys. In my opinion what I took out of it was maybe there was some either pre ignition or detonation coming from the nitro or the fact of only having 10 head bolts just will not hold the cylinder pressure produced by nitro.

This I know, nitro is shock sensitive and there is a limit on how much static compression you can have to run it without cylinder pressure igniting the mixture. The more % you have in your mixture the greater the risk of pre ignition. The M-5 I have is only about 6% nitro parrafin I have checked with a hydrometer.

I backed up to a safer 10% nitromethane in my mixture and dropped the timing to help get out of a possible preignition area. I ran/tested 100 % methanol at this timing setting and a 10% load of nitromethane on back to back passes. Then I raised the timing back to where I normally run methanol and m-5 and have run the 10% and up to 20% nitro mixture. The nitromethane mixture only picked up 8 hundredths at the lower mixture. Methanol picked those 8 hundreths + 1 back up when the timing was turned back up. I know m-5 will pick up a tenth at that timing setting in my car.

The fact to that story is the heads will be lifted at that setting on a 17-20% load of nitromethane and it will not perform as well as m-5 in my engine . So that is telling me that what ever the secrete chemical is in the m-5 to aid in "vaporization and a more complete burn" runs better in my engine. That is why I am trying the Q -16. I was not talked into it or persuaded.

What I am seeing with the q-16 is its near the same torque level against my converter as methanol and its not even tuned in correctly yet. If the Q-16 will produce the same torque as methanol it more than likely will out perform it on the big end of the track in my opinion. The trick is getting it tuned in on the injection.

That is what I think. Blake and I have been talking about trying injecting the q-16 for some time, we even talked about trying on his engine on the dyno but time did not allow. I plan on doing it now because I need to see if the et is there, If it turns out successful I know what my methanol tune up is and I can make a 10 minute turn around and provide a fair comparison of gas and methanol with the exact same induction and very close track and weather condition

Just for the record Randy Malik and I had pmed about this sometime back and I did make the statement to him I would believe gas is faster when I see it. He is not just poking at you Curt he is telling you what he believes , if he was into just being a prick and poking at someone he would have already done it to me in this thread I think .

Great job, Randy! Thanks for sharing your results from your testing. It will be great info for all. I hope to have my engine running very soon in the truck and plan to do some testing of my own with EFI. I want to try EFI up & down nozzles with alky and gas. My friend Alan Dudley has already designed and built the injector, now all we have to do is design a different tip to place the fuel in the right spot. I hope to play with this during the winter.

KY JELLY wrote:Curt I did not start this thread to cause another war on gas v/s alcohol.

I will stand firm on my opinion that methanol is the best fuel to run in my opinion for a bracket racing application because of it being as Randy stated more forgiving on weather changes and the convenience of your engine not getting as hot in late rounds and round robbin like they do to you at nmra events etc.

What I am looking at here is maximum performance, as you know I have used m-5 and nitro mixed with methanol.I lifted a cylinder head with the nitro.

My first priority was to figure out why, I have talked to several (as what I feel are very good) tuners on this forum that I know and they can identify themselves if they want not getting in that bag of worms because none of them were flexing their muscles I told ya so or vise versa. I even talked to some of Kaase's guys. In my opinion what I took out of it was maybe there was some either pre ignition or detonation coming from the nitro or the fact of only having 10 head bolts just will not hold the cylinder pressure produced by nitro.

This I know, nitro is shock sensitive and there is a limit on how much static compression you can have to run it without cylinder pressure igniting the mixture. The more % you have in your mixture the greater the risk of pre ignition. The M-5 I have is only about 6% nitro parrafin I have checked with a hydrometer.

I backed up to a safer 10% nitromethane in my mixture and dropped the timing to help get out of a possible preignition area. I ran/tested 100 % methanol at this timing setting and a 10% load of nitromethane on back to back passes. Then I raised the timing back to where I normally run methanol and m-5 and have run the 10% and up to 20% nitro mixture. The nitromethane mixture only picked up 8 hundredths at the lower mixture. Methanol picked those 8 hundreths + 1 back up when the timing was turned back up. I know m-5 will pick up a tenth at that timing setting in my car.

The fact to that story is the heads will be lifted at that setting on a 17-20% load of nitromethane and it will not perform as well as m-5 in my engine . So that is telling me that what ever the secrete chemical is in the m-5 to aid in "vaporization and a more complete burn" runs better in my engine. That is why I am trying the Q -16. I was not talked into it or persuaded.

What I am seeing with the q-16 is its near the same torque level against my converter as methanol and its not even tuned in correctly yet. If the Q-16 will produce the same torque as methanol it more than likely will out perform it on the big end of the track in my opinion. The trick is getting it tuned in on the injection.

That is what I think. Blake and I have been talking about trying injecting the q-16 for some time, we even talked about trying on his engine on the dyno but time did not allow. I plan on doing it now because I need to see if the et is there, If it turns out successful I know what my methanol tune up is and I can make a 10 minute turn around and provide a fair comparison of gas and methanol with the exact same induction and very close track and weather condition

Just for the record Randy Malik and I had pmed about this sometime back and I did make the statement to him I would believe gas is faster when I see it. He is not just poking at you Curt he is telling you what he believes , if he was into just being a prick and poking at someone he would have already done it to me in this thread I think .

You are exactly right ... gasoline will be faster when both are tuned to EXACTLY what is needed. It is simply much more difficult to get there with gasoline ... and then when you do, the weather changes and you have to do it all over again.
With alcohol, if your 8 to 12 percent rich in the heat, the MIXTURE tune-up won't change the power much in cool air. The cool air however, will add some power. When you start adding NITRO then the ultimate power to be achieved will no longer be on the side of gasoline; (although you can add NITRO to gasoline, in small percentages, also).
AS you have said, alcohol is more consistent under all conditions and in "bracket" racing ... that IS the target, not getting the most performance from run to run.

"You are exactly right ... gasoline will be faster when both are tuned to EXACTLY what is needed. It is simply much more difficult to get there with gasoline ... and then when you do, the weather changes and you have to do it all over again"
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I don't agree with the "do it ALL over again" statement unless it's a racer that travels from Gainsville to Denver. The 9 months of the year racers from this end of the USA that can see a 50ish degree swing during their racing season will need to make a jet or air bleed adjustment when the temps are at the extremes...but... i.m.o. that would not qualify as "all over again".
An methanol racer that has their stuff really tuned up may also want to make adjustments when the air temps have a huge swing .

^^^^^ agreed............my junk is set up for the "crap" air we have had since early spring, we just had a nice cold front come through.. I imagine my next outing will take some tuning. I'm also not speaking of just the meth side of it but also the mr frosty side...........


Honestly KY you may want to consider it, its made a good difference and I'm running a pretty small jet.

I am curious to see how the Q works in the MFI, I'm just not sure you can get it refined enough though.

I did fiddle with Q a few years back, the carb was way off, and the car didn't run worth a damn.

Lem Evans wrote:"You are exactly right ... gasoline will be faster when both are tuned to EXACTLY what is needed. It is simply much more difficult to get there with gasoline ... and then when you do, the weather changes and you have to do it all over again"
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I don't agree with the "do it ALL over again" statement unless it's a racer that travels from Gainsville to Denver. The 9 months of the year racers from this end of the USA that can see a 50ish degree swing during their racing season will need to make a jet or air bleed adjustment when the temps are at the extremes...but... i.m.o. that would not qualify as "all over again".
An methanol racer that has their stuff really tuned up may also want to make adjustments when the air temps have a huge swing .

Just a couple weeks ago at the strip in Grand Bend Ontario, the first run on Saturday morning was 56 degrees, medium percent humidity and the DA was about 1,200 or so feet and in the 2nd run early evening the temp was 92 degrees with only slightly less percent humidity with a DA around 3,400 feet. SAME day ... that happens a lot around the great lakes throughout the year. So, of course it's not just the temps but the track surface conditions have changed also so, it requires tuning-up the entire vehicle along with the engine.

EDIT: Now, the Super Stock guys I was with knew their car very well and had been through all of this before so a quik look through the log book and 2 jet sizes leaner, 1 degree more ignition timing, one notch up on the front travel limiters with a pound less air in the tires and they were ready to go, They didn't get to that point in just a few sessions but, it took months - even years of running that combination.
If they were using alcohol, they probably wouldn't have needed to change the engine tune-up at all.

Most guys just get the white shoe polish out

Lem Evans wrote:Most guys just get the white shoe polish out

I totally see your point, LOL. However, that is the main difference between "class" racing and "bracket racing". One is about going as fast as you can possibly go and the other is simply being consistent while going fast.

To me this is an (outstanding) thread . KY thank you for posting test data, i no your meth man by heart, but to give some props to gas shows me you are the real deal.....

very good thread KY! thanks for all the help you've been to me on my injection setup.if anybody can get the q16 injected deal goen you can!

First pass on The Q 16 was 5.21 @ 129 mph . Its going to need some individual nozzle changes , but overall I see no problems tuning in the top end fuel mixture . I had 4 cylinders a little rich and 4 pushing too lean. I am impressed with it so far .

Now ... add your 6% nitro to that mixture.

did it stay cool?

J Y Kelly is Always cool

Lem Evans wrote:J Y Kelly is Always cool

he's cooler than Q16!

KY JELLY wrote:Curt I did not start this thread to cause another war on gas v/s alcohol.

I know,,, and I don't want to Hijack your thread. I was simply stating that Alcohol is not a band aid for racers that cant tune with gasoline. Every successful Alky racer I know can tune with both fuels. It is a choice of bracket racers, which most of us are, to be consistant. That would be the key to consistant success. Bracket racing is 75% of what all American racers are, not max performance, first to the finish line wins.



Also, Gasoline is only a quicker fuel on large cubic inch motors where volume becomes an issue with 2.3 times as much fuel having occupy the intake runner, and still may be a very small percentage unless cammed correctly.



Thanks for your informative post, it gives everyone a clearer picture on what is happening in the world of fast door cars.

you must remember Q16 is not normal gasoline...............


Ky for the conditions what would the car ET and mph with plain meth?

Fabio, you of all people should know that hero stuff is not normal.

richter69 wrote:you must remember Q16 is not normal gasoline...............


Ky for the conditions what would the car ET and mph with plain meth?

True, but M5 isn't normal akly either. I dont run either fuel, just the normal 99.99 % pure methanol. It's good enough for a bracket racer that needs a very large tuning window.

I did not take it that way Curt. I just think sometimes these fuel debates get to personal and was stating my opinion. I know Lem and I go at it about this alky / gas on here all the time , but what people don't see is one of us will call the other 5 minutes after one of these internet spats and have a big discussion about it , we don't always agree then , but we don't hold it against one another if we don't and then again sometimes we do agree.

Conditions are a big thing Mr Fabio from tune up to track conditions. Last night I Made my first pass on Q 16 , my second pass I changed over for m-5 , but I did not have an extra fuel jug to pump the m-5 out of my drum into so I made a up front known rich pass on plain methanol to empty a fuel jug, and then 2 passes on m-5.

The pass on methanol felt like a more powerful launch but ended up a slower 60 and et by about 1 number on the clock. The m-5 passes felt a lot more powerful but The car moved around due to track or my tires one on the first pass and then completely blew the tires off on the next so I had to lift.

My friend with the 706 bbc was trying to slow his car down for the 4.89 index and started taking nos away from the car and ended up picking up 5 numbers with no nos so I don't think it was our cars. What I am saying when you go to comparing things like this you have got to weigh out every issue and I do not feel these passes reflect a 100% fuel comparison because of track conditions. What I did take out of it is they are very close there is not a tenth difference , but comparisons would be different with the correct tune up on each fuel and a track that would hold it.

As far as induction it is equal as you can get they are all going through the same manifold , throttle body and fuel system. I am going to post the time slips and the last one does have my car # wrong but this is the pass it blew the tires off after launch so it does not mean anything anyway. I will post the egt log on the q-16 later when Becca gets home I do not know how to transfer it to computer other than my patented red neck scanner take a pic of the puter screen and load it lol.