Aluminum Head rule

The class I pull in is considering a head rule change to allow some aluminum in. Currently we have an any Iron head rule and I am pushing to get some aluminum in to make it a little less costly per Hp. Our goal is to implement a rule that will not put anyone running iron at a disadvantage. Currently we have a few guys knocking on 900hp out of a 470ci motor turning 8000-9000rpm, so what BBF aluminum heads are capable of delivering 850-900hp? Are the P-51's capable of that with some work? What about the Trickflow A460 and SVO heads?

Thanks for the input. My goal is to give us Ford guys a few more options besides the EX514 and cost less if possible.

Alan

From what I have read and seen on here yes on p-51, yes on tfs a460, svo ?

A guy on here made 924 with box stock P51's on a 572, ported heads on 560" motors have been in the 950-960 range.

I'd go with the A460 , don't forget there is iron A460's

I forgot to add that our current head rule allows any Iron head.

DanH wrote: I'd go with the A460 , don't forget there is iron A460's

the iron a460 is the ex514 head

richter69 wrote:A guy on here made 924 with box stock P51's on a 572, ported heads on 560" motors have been in the 950-960 range.

hes talking about a 470ci engine,makein 900hp

What's going on Mr. Horsin? I would say that any of the production style aluminum heads would be close to that. The SCJ's might be a little behind the P's but not a bunch. The TFS Streets would be close to the SCJ's and the A's would be close to 1000 just like the iron EX-514's. I'm trying to get the ball rolling on the same thing with the mud drag organization here in NE. I was hoping that they would allow any production style aluminum equivilant head to be allowed. The "production style" would leave out the A's, but allow the Kasse heads including the BOSS heads. I know that the EX-514's are about the same as A's, but the A's are still being improved upon every day with new versions sure to come before long that will outdo the latest generation A's. I am not sure how many generations that there are now, but the newest IDT heads will definately outdo the original Motorsports A's. Good luck with this and keep me posted on how this works out, because I hope to do the same with our organization.
How did that intake manifold work for you this year?

BOSS 429 wrote:

richter69 wrote:A guy on here made 924 with box stock P51's on a 572, ported heads on 560" motors have been in the 950-960 range.

hes talking about a 470ci engine,makein 900hp

thus the reason I gave the cubic inch numbers lol.

Still gonna be a big task what ever head you use w/470 limit to make 950/1000. Gonna be a high winding high dollar deal imo.

bbf-falcon wrote:Still gonna be a big task what ever head you use w/470 limit to make 950/1000. Gonna be a high winding high dollar deal imo.

The "limited class" rule around here, (sand drags), is ANY head with stock production intake port locations; exhaust ports can only be raised 5/8" and use production type valve train.
That seems to keep it fair for everybody.

For a pulling truck I would go w/EX514 steel head,because it will flow w/A heads,but they will put a xtra 150# or more over the front wheels. And if I had a pulling truck and had my choice between 50/75 hp and 150# over the front,I will take the weight everytime.

Only problem with the iron ex-514 heads is the cost, when i checked a set of bare castings started at $3500 and with minor port cleanup and a basic valve angle $4500. We are dealing with the iron head rule right now aswell in the mud racing I participate in, the rule no longer does what it was put in place for and that was to keep cost down, with the low cost of aluminum heads now days it is much cheaper to run aluminum and if something catastrofic happens it is much easier to repair aluminum. This is the rule the MRA(mud racers association) has in place for superstock trucks:

Conventional OEM style aluminum heads allowed. Pro-Stock style heads (i.e. No Chevy spread port/profiler style heads. No Ford C-heads or Thor heads) not permitted with the following exceptions: (A) Ford Motorsports A-460 heads and Trick-Flow A-460 heads are allowed. (B) Any aftermarket conventional OEM style small blcok aluminjm head allowed (Small Block canted valve heads not permitted).

bbf-falcon wrote:For a pulling truck I would go w/EX514 steel head,because it will flow w/A heads,but they will put a xtra 150# or more over the front wheels. And if I had a pulling truck and had my choice between 50/75 hp and 150# over the front,I will take the weight everytime.

Actually, we prefer to have moveable weight, and then 4wds want it about 60" in front of the front axle, and 2wheelers need to be able to move it front to back.

Smitty, whazzup? lol I didn't notice any difference with the new intake, but did not have the money to dyno after changing to it and a dry sump, so hopefully this winter I can get that done.

The ex514's certainly are an option currently, but I'm told it takes $7000 to bolt them on the block. And as we all know Iron is obsolete with no manufactures investing technology in it. Also, as has been said the iron rule was implemented to keep costs down 40 years ago, but now that has flip flopped and is now more expensive to buy/build. Further there is more of a market to sell/purchase aluminum these days, further helping someone getting into a sport.
The class allowed the ex514 head some years back and we have a few running them, so we can't go back on that, but most are afraid of allowing the A460 head because of the HP capabilities it has. Again, our goal is to allow aluminum in while not putting the guys with iron at a disadvantage. I suggested anything that accepts a production valvetrain and cast intake, but then that allows the boss nine and the A and C460 in I'm told. So we are looking at a list of allowed heads in aluminum and since they don't want to allow the A460 family, I want to make sure the P51/SCJ/TFS street can support the 900hp range in a 470 so that we are not at a disadvantage.

What is the trickflow Powerport 325 head for the 460 and what kind of power is it capable of? Their website doesn't call it an A head.

http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail.asp?part=TFS%2D5340T010%2DC01&autoview=sku

In my opinion you are splitting hairs allowing ex-514 and not a-460's because they are in the same family from what I understood when researching the ex514 was a copy of the first motorsport a-460 heads which was the same as the trickflow a-460's at that time.

the ex514 is pretty much the same, i have to engines with the ex head,good head,and a good head for 470ci,cost is the diff

HorsinAround wrote:What is the trickflow Powerport 325 head for the 460 and what kind of power is it capable of? Their website doesn't call it an A head.

http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail.asp?part=TFS%2D5340T010%2DC01&autoview=sku

The Trick Flow Powerport 325 is a CNC ported version of the TFS Street heads.

As far as meeting your rules the following alum. head should be allowed in, because they all can use a stock OEM intake manifold gasket.

1. The Pro Crap heads.

2. Any Edelbrock 429-460 heads such as the Performers and RPM heads.

3. The old style SVO A-429 CJ heads.

4. Any Blue Thunder alum, head except for the Thor head.

5. The TFS Street heads including the CNC versions called the Powerports.

All of the above have the same valve pierce point and can use most any aftermarket piston.

6. The FRPP SCJ heads.

7. The Kasse P-51 heads.

The above two heads have a different valve pierce point that is raised above the OEM points and calls for a different piston, and/or new reliefs cut into the OEM style pistons.

The EX 514 cast iron heads, are an A-460 design head, just cast in iron. If that head is allowed as legal, due to being "grandfathered" in, then it should make the most power of all of the above heads, all other factors being equal. However, the SCJ and P-51 heads will be close on it's heels.

With any of the above heads you will be hard pressed to make an honest 950 Hp out of 470 cubic inches, with a single four cast alum. intake manifold. Truck pullers trying to do so, should realize that a max effort pullling engine of this type should include a dry sump, vacuum pump, lightweight ring package, titanium valves, shaft mounted rocker arms, big camshaft, big valve spring pressures, big diameter pushrods, and upgraded solid roller lifters. A lot of the expense of a pulling engine is in those parts that I mentioned above and I did not mention the heads themselves. Whatever kind of head you are running, will require titanium valves, because pullers are above 8000 rpm for 18 to 20 seconds during a pull. You're asking for at least 2 Hp per cubic inch, preferably more. I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking there are a lot of bogus dynos out there.

The cylinder head rule from 40 years ago, requiring cast iron heads, was an attempt at controling the cost of the sport by restricting the pullers to junkyard heads. However, I believe that the Chevy guys kind of opened a Pandora's Box years ago, when they started allowing the cast iron Merlin heads as a substitute for the OEM junkyard heads.

Hope this helps,

Uncle Charlie

I'm not sure of the rules in your neck of the woods Alan, but remember that the BOSS heads were first cast in iron, then modified and made out of aluminum, so in essence they should also be allowed. They are cost prohibitive compared to some other types of heads though. I would think that if one allowed the EX's that the aluminum A's should be allowed too. Yes the newer ones are a little better, but one is splitting some hairs there. A group should be very specific when approaching this, but it is a step in the right direction IMHO.

Big Daddy has spoken, and I agree with him. The Boss Hemi heads were first cast in iron and then in alum.. I guess the real point is, that IF the sanctioning body allows 426 Mopar Hemi heads, then to be fair they should allow the Boss 429 Hemi heads.

Now then purely from the Ford boys point of view,,,,when comparing a Boss 429 Hemi head with the OEM intake port location (low) and using OEM intake gaskets, I don't know for sure that we can say they will make more power than the EX 514 iron heads which again are of the A-460 design, but as we all know are a raised port design.

Another point is, that if they are going to allow the EX 514 iron heads, and open everything up to alum. heads, then the other A-460 design heads are the; 1. Original TFS A-460 heads. 2. The Ford Motorsports A-460 heads. 3. The current Trick Flow A-460 heads. 4. The IDT Eliminator A-460 heads. 5. And of course the EX 514 alum. A-460 heads.

Hope this helps,

Charlie

Charlie

I agree with you that the A460 should be allowed since the ex514 is grandfathered, but one guy (an engine builder up this way) is adament about them not being allowed in. His reasoning doesn't make sense to me but he basically says that the EX514 is capable of 1000hp in the 470's and the new A460s more and that is more than the best chevy iron head can make.

Imho, in the interest of getting the aluminum door opened without getting out of hand, I'm willing to forego the argument of the A460 aluminum if the P51/FRPP SCJ will get up there and hang pretty closely with the iron Chevy stuff.

Also, we already decided not to allow the hemi stuff.

Thanks Uncle Charlie for the info, that's what I'm looking for. Also, most of the guys that are in the 800 club are already running all the goodies you mentioned. What is the advantage of shaft rockers over pedistal type in this application?

Well, that one guy who says EX 514 heads are capable of 1000 Hp on a 475 CID engine is wrong! He's using that argument for his own personal agenda, so shoot him down.

There is a reason most of the high end, high rpm engines, be it Super Stock, Comp Eliminator or Pro Stock use shaft mounted rockers. Generally they promote a more stable valve train, and a good bit of effort is made to reduce the polar moment of inertia with lightening and 3 D profiling etc.

Charlie

c.evans wrote:Well, that one guy who says EX 514 heads are capable of 1000 Hp on a 475 CID engine is wrong! He's using that argument for his own personal agenda, so shoot him down.

There is a reason most of the high end, high rpm engines, be it Super Stock, Comp Eliminator or Pro Stock use shaft mounted rockers. Generally they promote a more stable valve train, and a good bit of effort is made to reduce the polar moment of inertia with lightening and 3 D profiling etc.

Charlie

Thanks for the info on the rockers, just furthering my "education" on that question. As for the 1000hp, he says someone from Kentucky with a BIG pocketbook hired a well known engine builder in Southern Indiana to build a 514 headed motor and this builder told my guy directly that he was able to get 1000hp out of it. That is why he is concerned about it as he says the 514 head in the right hands will give the Fords an advantage and if the new A460's are allowed, then the Fords will make more power than everyone else. Also, most people say that Iron CJ's can't make much if anything over 800hp, but my understanding is that Brett has his knocking on 900, so with this in mind, is it possible that a 514 headed motor could hit 1000hp with the right combination of goodies?

Alan,

I guess you are referring to Tony B. as the engine builder in southern IN., if anyone can he would certainly be one of the very top guys who possibly could. At this point it becomes how much of a Pro Stock engine does one want to build??? I mean 60 mm LSM camshafts, 1.00" or 1.062" diameter lifters, BIG bore and short stroke, low deck and so on. How much money does a truck puller want to throw at his engine? Maybe the sanctioning body might want to instigate a claimer rule if they are wanting to regulate the engine cost. Again, many of the items that make these engines very expensive are things other than the cylinder heads.

You haven't said, but I assume you are also limited to a cast single plane, single carb intake manifold? Is that correct?

Charlie

c.evans wrote:Alan,

I guess you are referring to Tony B. as the engine builder in southern IN., if anyone can he would certainly be one of the very top guys who possibly could. At this point it becomes how much of a Pro Stock engine does one want to build??? I mean 60 mm LSM camshafts, 1.00" or 1.062" diameter lifters, BIG bore and short stroke, low deck and so on. How much money does a truck puller want to throw at his engine? Maybe the sanctioning body might want to instigate a claimer rule if they are wanting to regulate the engine cost. Again, many of the items that make these engines very expensive are things other than the cylinder heads.

You haven't said, but I assume you are also limited to a cast single plane, single carb intake manifold? Is that correct?

Charlie

Actually Tom T. and the guy that hired him supposedly gave him a huge check and said build me a motor. And yes we are limited to a cast intake and single carb intake. no splits. I will say this though we do have a couple that seem to have enough cash to build at the upper end of what the current iron offerings can produce and the rest of us are trying to catch up with limited budgets.