Aluminum Head rule

HorsinAround wrote:I agree with you that the A460 should be allowed since the ex514 is grandfathered, but one guy (an engine builder up this way) is adament about them not being allowed in. His reasoning doesn't make sense to me but he basically says that the EX514 is capable of 1000hp in the 470's and the new A460s more and that is more than the best chevy iron head can make.

Imho, in the interest of getting the aluminum door opened without getting out of hand, I'm willing to forego the argument of the A460 aluminum if the P51/FRPP SCJ will get up there and hang pretty closely with the iron Chevy stuff.

Also, we already decided not to allow the hemi stuff.

Thanks Uncle Charlie for the info, that's what I'm looking for. Also, most of the guys that are in the 800 club are already running all the goodies you mentioned. What is the advantage of shaft rockers over pedistal type in this application?

why not allow the hemi stuff,there are still iron heads out there,,and besides the boss is a factory head

As Charlie has said, you CAN'T claim anything to do about money when talking cylinder heads. It simply has very little to do with the cost of runnung that head.
Someone can run ANYTHING inside the engine yet the cost of the cylinder heads are made an issue. ..? That'a totally outragous. It doesn't matter what head you are limited to using ... the guy who spends the most money on using 60MM camshaft journals and all the other stuff Charlie mentioned, will have the most power.
I know, first hand, a drag race 500" Chevrolet right now using Dart 18°
stock type aluminum heads which is in the 1,000 horsepower range ... although at 9,600 RPM and all the good stuff inside. It pretty much is a single 4 barrel, Pro-Stock engine.

The people who are trying to make these rules are absolutely blind to the true elements of where the COST is involved with making horsepower. It sure isn't the price of the heads in most cases.
They better limit the rest of the stuff or, limiting the head castings won't mean a thing.

In my oppinion, (grandfathered or not), the EX head and all A460 heads should be illegal however, if you ALLOW the "EX" iron head there is absolutely no concrete reasoning to NOT allow the aluminum "A" heads.
That reasoning in itself says if you want to run an "A" head then "spend the extra money" to run the iron version ... that's just rediculous.

rmcomprandy wrote:As Charlie has said, you CAN'T claim anything to do about money when talking cylinder heads. It simply has very little to do with the cost of runnung that head.
Someone can run ANYTHING inside the engine yet the cost of the cylinder heads are made an issue. ..? That'a totally outragous. It doesn't matter what head you are limited to using ... the guy who spends the most money on using 60MM camshaft journals and all the other stuff Charlie mentioned will have the most power.
I know, first hand, a drag race 500" Chevrolet right now using Dart 18°
stock type aluminum heads which is in the 1,000 horsepower range ... although at 9,600 RPM and all the good stuff inside. It pretty much is a single 4 barrel, Pro-Stock engine.

The people who are trying to make these rules are absolutely blind to the true elements of where the COST is involved with making horsepower. It sure isn't the price of the heads in most cases.
They better limit the rest of the stuff or, limiting the head castings won't mean a thing.

In my oppinion, (grandfathered or not), the EX head and all A460 heads should be illegal however, if you ALLOW the "EX" iron head there is absolutely no concrete reasoning to NOT allow the aluminum "A" heads.
That reasoning in itself says if you want to run an "A" head then "spend the extra money" to run the iron version ... that's just rediculous.

START over and simply allow aluminum versions of whatever Iron heads are now allowed. But, then you can't use your P-51'a or FRPP SCJ's and THAT rule change is what this seems to be originally about.
DON'T allow anybody who has ANYTHING to gain by any rule change, make the rules or there will always be a faction looking to sway an advantage their way.

I say leave the rule as OEM iron heads only.... NOTHING aftermarket allowed.

Their are plenty of OEM Iron heads avaliable for BBC, BBF and BBM engines.

dfree383 wrote:I say leave the rule as OEM iron heads only.... NOTHING aftermarket allowed.

Their are plenty of OEM Iron heads avaliable for BBC, BBF and BBM engines.

as posted earlier, it is currently an any iron head rule. Its not limited to oem

HorsinAround wrote:

dfree383 wrote:I say leave the rule as OEM iron heads only.... NOTHING aftermarket allowed.

Their are plenty of OEM Iron heads avaliable for BBC, BBF and BBM engines.

as posted earlier, it is currently an any iron head rule. Its not limited to oem

I understand that.... make it an OEM only rule, stock castings are still relitivly cheap for most makes. Modifications are where the money is at..... thats not going to change with allowing aftermarket or aluminum stuff.

HorsinAround wrote:

dfree383 wrote:I say leave the rule as OEM iron heads only.... NOTHING aftermarket allowed.

Their are plenty of OEM Iron heads avaliable for BBC, BBF and BBM engines.

as posted earlier, it is currently an any iron head rule. Its not limited to oem

DON'T simply add to it ... CHANGE the rule...!!!

Like the sand draggers rule because every make has an aftermarket, good, fairly equal, cylinder head which fits under those simple headings.
ANY Head which meets these parameters:
1. OEM intake port locations.
2. OEM production type valve train.
3. exhaust ports can only be raised a maximum of 5/8" of an inch

It's almost to simple but, then there would be no arguments in the attempt to gain an advantage. What fun is that...lol.

That's what should have happened years ago but now everyone except me are running aftermarket iron so they wouldn't go for it.

Except for the aftermarket iron EX514; every other iron head, (aftermarket or not), will fit within those "sand drag" rules.

The ONLY people required to make a change are the one's using the EX heads. They would then have to run in a modified class or make a change.

HorsinAround wrote:

dfree383 wrote:I say leave the rule as OEM iron heads only.... NOTHING aftermarket allowed.

Their are plenty of OEM Iron heads avaliable for BBC, BBF and BBM engines.

as posted earlier, it is currently an any iron head rule. Its not limited to oem

thats where the problem is for sure, the ex514 heads cost the most to build,sucks for the ford guys, i have another pair sitting here, there cnced, then hand finished( more could be done) and it would take about 6000.00 to buy them,bare

dfree383 wrote:I say leave the rule as OEM iron heads only.... NOTHING aftermarket allowed.

Their are plenty of OEM Iron heads avaliable for BBC, BBF and BBM engines.

as posted earlier, it is currently an any iron head rule. Its not limited to oem
[/quote]

Too late for the nothing aftermarket deal.

DON'T simply add to it ... CHANGE the rule...!!!

Like the sand draggers rule because every make has an aftermarket, good, fairly equal, cylinder head which fits under those simple headings.
ANY Head which meets these parameters:
1. OEM intake port locations.
2. OEM production type valve train.
3. exhaust ports can only be raised a maximum of 5/8" of an inch

It's almost to simple but, then there would be no arguments in the attempt to gain an advantage. What fun is that...lol.[/quote]

If this rule was implemented would it knock out the FRPP SCJ and P51? How is "production type valve train defined"?

HorsinAround wrote:

dfree383 wrote:I say leave the rule as OEM iron heads only.... NOTHING aftermarket allowed.

Their are plenty of OEM Iron heads avaliable for BBC, BBF and BBM engines.

as posted earlier, it is currently an any iron head rule. Its not limited to oem

Too late for the nothing aftermarket deal.

DON'T simply add to it ... CHANGE the rule...!!!

Like the sand draggers rule because every make has an aftermarket, good, fairly equal, cylinder head which fits under those simple headings.
ANY Head which meets these parameters:
1. OEM intake port locations.
2. OEM production type valve train.
3. exhaust ports can only be raised a maximum of 5/8" of an inch

It's almost to simple but, then there would be no arguments in the attempt to gain an advantage. What fun is that...lol.[/quote]

If this rule was implemented would it knock out the FRPP SCJ and P51? How is "production type valve train defined"?[/quote]

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Just as the wording of the rule says ... "ANY".
Not limited to production or anything else as long as it fits those three guidlines.

Those guidelines would include the FRPP SCJ and P-51 or raised FORD exhaust runner Blue Thunder. It also includes the Chevrolet World Products 16° "rollover head" head, Dart or Brodix raise exhaust runner heads or the Mopar offerings from INDY.
OR, any of the previous cast iron heads except the EX514. (Aftermarket Chevrolet iron heads have raised exhaust ports).
Anyone who could afford those EX heads to begin with, could afford to change to another head or afford to run in a modified class.

If it originally came OEM with studs then the heads have to still have studs and if they originally came OEM with shafts then rocker shafts have to remain; no problem there.

The "quote" button seems to be acting-up again.

I've been working on cubic inch limited (472) pulling truck engines at the higher end of the food chain (E-460, C-460, Blue Thunder Thors) for many years now. Problem is most of the people with influence in rule making in pulling organizations have very little knowledge about what is fair among brands. Most have good intentions. A few like to have the rules bent for what parts they have in hand (financial benefit) or to favor themselves or their brand(performance benefit). It becomes a game of this engine builder did this and some other guy did that without a shred of evidence either way.
Not sure what your experience is, but here the Ford guys are typically out-numbered by the Chevy contingent and end up with the short end of the stick. As all experienced engine builders know, the combination is what really matters and the facts are that while some of the ford heads may be better than their chevy counterparts (I intentionally use "may" loosely as that is extremely debatable), the package they are in for these type engines is typically at a disadvantage. Mainly, I'm referring to the intake manifold and taller deck block. I'm sure I'll get a lot of arguments here, but my thoughts are that your organization would be better served to quit arguing about the heads, make some sort of sensible rule like Randy suggests, and look at lowering hitch height and reducing maximum weight to make truck set-up the priority.
In reality, if you would all give up about 4 inches of hitch and 2-400 pounds, it really would not matter how much horsepower you have. The higher horsepower guys would likely be disadvantaged.

Bryan,

A sensible rule is exactly what I am trying to do. Since the current rule allows any iron head, most guys are running aftermarkets, so there is no going back to OEM only. So, I am left with trying to define a rule that allows aluminum, yet doesn't give any brand an advantage (as much as possible anyway)
We could go to a spec list, but I'd like to avoid that if possible. If we went with the rule suggested above, would there be an advantage with the 16 degree stuff?

Is there another way to word the rule that keeps the current all iron heads, and allows aluminums of equivelant capabilities?

Sorry, I think the cat is out of the bag with the EX-514. If you adopt stock style aluminum heads, leaving out the A460 aluminum variants, and keep the EX-514 then you are kidding yourself. Without listing heads, or adopting language along the lines Randy is suggesting, you will not be able to keep anything from being legal. Our organization, which is by no means a good example, has a rule that spells out which heads are legal and which are not, with a provision for any new head to be reviewed prior to allowance. I can get you a copy of the rules that we run under. Basically, it allows 24 deg. Chevy heads (and 2 degree rolled versions), but no spread port stuff, Ford CJ/SCJ/Blue Thunder CJ heads and A460 heads. I'll post up the exact rules tomorrow - time for bed now.

I do not believe the 16 degree World Products head would be a performance advantage, given the ports are still in the stock location. The Brodix 16 degree is an entirely different story, though. So be careful just saying 16 degree heads, if you are trying to avoid a spec list.

I would be very interested in seeing your rules.

HorsinAround wrote:Bryan,

A sensible rule is exactly what I am trying to do. Since the current rule allows any iron head, most guys are running aftermarkets, so there is no going back to OEM only. So, I am left with trying to define a rule that allows aluminum, yet doesn't give any brand an advantage (as much as possible anyway)
We could go to a spec list, but I'd like to avoid that if possible. If we went with the rule suggested above, would there be an advantage with the 16 degree stuff?

Is there another way to word the rule that keeps the current all iron heads, and allows aluminums of equivelant capabilities?

How many times must I repeat myself ...lol.
ALL brands would have their beneficial head however, all brands are about equal in their offerings as long as OEM intake port locations and valve trains are maintained.

The 16° Chevrolet head from World has some combustion chamber benefits however, it also has the drawbacks of not flowing as much air as some of the other Chevrolet heads; the OEM intake port location "Head Hunter" Brodix or "Big M" Dart come readily to mind as heads that flow higher maximums.
BUT ... if you people were willing to add another simple rule of "solid steel valves only; 11/32" minimum stem." then high RPM engines would be reletively non existant and make those huge port heads a waste of money with 470 inches.

Reading your posts, it simply looks as though you are trying to gain some kind of advantage when a rules change does take place and you are not interrested in a fair, level playing field for all brands.. These rules WON'T give you or anybody else any big advantage.
AND, that IS the way it should be.

If I came across that way it was not intended. I thought I stated that my goal is to create a level playing field and I am trying to gain the knowledge to make sure that happens. I have inquired about certain heads because I know what some of the Chevy's are making for power with the iron offerings and I am trying to come up with some solutions that will give all brands an equal playing field (if possible).
In my particular situation, I can't do any upgrading until my kids are out of colllege (6 more years) so this isn't going effect me fyi.

You can't please everybody, all the time...!

Make everybody equal and make everybody angry ... everyone wants to THINK they have an advantage or they won't be satisfied. That's just the way it is.

I would add the steel valve rule to the sand draggers rules and it would probably accomplish that and bring some equality to the class.
You also have to face the fact that some racers are always going to win and some are always going to lose no matter what the rules dictate.

All those people who have titanium valves in their IRON heads will not like it one bit however, in the interrest of fairness the capable RPM levels have to be addressed if you are going to open the rules to allow aluminum aftermarket heads and wish to have it all remain a level playing field.

You could have a steel valve rule in aluminum heads ONLY and this would tend to make the aftermarket IRON heads more competitive.

You asked and here are the head rules used by Southern Pullers for a 5200lb 2WD Modified class:

472 cubic inch limit, no aluminum blocks - stock bore center
Only one carburetor allowed
Gasoline only - No alcohol, no oxidizers
No tunnel ram manifolds or sheet metal intakes. No two piece intakes.
Cylinder heads introduced to market after January 2003 will not be allowed. Any questions will be addressed by the SPA, Inc. board of directors. Approved cylinder heads:

a. Chevrolet (General Motors)
- Any conventional cylinder head with 24 degree valve angle
The following heads are NOT allowed:
1. Pontiac or Pontiac style
2. Oldsmobile or any DRCE cylinder head
3. Ray Franks 12 degree spread port or similar heads
4. Brodix Big Duke or similar Brodix heads
5. Dart Big Chief or similar heads

b. Ford
The following heads are considered legal:
1. Cobra Jet, Super Cobra Jet, A-429 style
2. Blue Thunder (Later amended to disallow Thor heads)
3. A-460, Ford Motorsport or Trick Flow

c. Mopar
Any cylinder head that does not have canted valves
The following cylinder heads are NOT allowed:
1. Hemi '99 or Pro-Stock
2. NRC Performance Products Predator

Keep in mind these guys run a 36" hitch length x 26" hitch height @ 5200 lbs.

Randy,

Sent you a PM. I'd like your critique of the rules above and what combination you would choose based upon them. Thanks.