Re: AFR BBF Head

68galaxie August 19th 2017, 11:54 am

Randy M is 100% correct. Different heads perform best with the appropriate camshafts etc..

The issue that I have is that ALL of these magazine tests are set up and run to favor the cylinder head manufacturer that is sponsoring the so called neutral test.

Did Kaase use a completely untouched OTB P51 for his tests? How much "detail" went into the build?
Was the intake left unmodified?

Did AFR pay closer attention to "detail" and matched components when showing how much better their head performed?
What intake manifold was used on the P51 and others? (I suspect the AFR intake was not used on all test subjects.
Was the AFR intake tweaked? who knows.

I have never said I do not like the AFR offering. It looks to be a very nice piece of engineering.

That being said hopefully a "full boogie" 557 AFR headed engine is built - I would expect well over 1000 hp.

wayney August 19th 2017, 1:33 pm

my take for what it's worth....

I have P51's on my motor - would I take them off to change to AFR ... no way IF they are better I don't think it is enough to justify

If I was building an engine from scratch.... I would give them a try if the P51's were not available if that style head fit the build. I would rather spend my money with Kaase than AFR

I do like that they have a matching manifold . ( not sure how well it matches up but I would hope it does coming from the same mfg.)

My suspicion is that there is not enough HP difference in the heads that there are other areas in the engine that could make up the difference or cost the difference in MOST builds.

what I would like to see is a raised intake port P51 head that uses a CJ style intake Very Happy

wayne

68formalGT August 19th 2017, 2:11 pm

I've seen what Oakley can do with the P-51's in a mud truck with a vacuum restriction so when he gets done with Lem and his(he and Lem's?) build then I think we'll have a good idea what the potential really is. Then if you can talk someone into doing an engine swap from one to the other..........

Hardy August 19th 2017, 5:34 pm

wayney wrote:

what I would like to see is a raised intake port P51 head that uses a CJ style intake

wayne

This is what I've been saying for a while. Would love to see an offering for the big ford that does the same thing as the Victor 15 degree head does for the Windsor.

wayney August 20th 2017, 2:01 pm

yes

Hardy wrote:
wayney wrote:

what I would like to see is a raised intake port P51 head that uses a CJ style intake

wayne

This is what I've been saying for a while. Would love to see an offering for the big ford that does the same thing as the Victor 15 degree head does for the Windsor.

Lem Evans August 20th 2017, 3:15 pm

68formalGT wrote:I've seen what Oakley can do with the P-51's in a mud truck with a vacuum restriction so when he gets done with Lem and his(he and Lem's?) build then I think we'll have a good idea what the potential really is. Then if you can talk someone into doing an engine swap from one to the other..........

He has promised me he'll get on the AFR project after he gets back from the divisional race in Bowling Green.

68formalGT August 20th 2017, 3:20 pm

I think I speak for most everyone here when I say thank you two for taking this on especially since it's your money and time and not being done for a customer.

Hardy August 20th 2017, 7:42 pm

68formalGT wrote:I think I speak for most everyone here when I say thank you two for taking this on especially since it's your money and time and not being done for a customer.

X2

HorsinAround August 20th 2017, 8:26 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
68formalGT wrote:I've seen what Oakley can do with the P-51's in a mud truck with a vacuum restriction so when he gets done with Lem and his(he and Lem's?) build then I think we'll have a good idea what the potential really is. Then if you can talk someone into doing an engine swap from one to the other..........

He has promised me he'll get on the AFR project after he gets back from the divisional race in Bowling Green.

Thanks Lem. looking forward to the information.

BOSS 429 August 20th 2017, 9:56 pm

wayney wrote:my take for what it's worth....

I have P51's on my motor - would I take them off to change to AFR ... no way IF they are better I don't think it is enough to justify

If I was building an engine from scratch.... I would give them a try if the P51's were not available if that style head fit the build. I would rather spend my money with Kaase than AFR

I do like that they have a matching manifold . ( not sure how well it matches up but I would hope it does coming from the same mfg.)

My suspicion is that there is not enough HP difference in the heads that there are other areas in the engine that could make up the difference or cost the difference in MOST builds.

what I would like to see is a raised intake port P51 head that uses a CJ style intake

wayne

what ET does your p51 run,and what does the car weigh? what did you switch from?

somebody posted on comp plus,or one of those fourms that the p51 is no more? , Heard it from a guy on RJ that had an add looking for p51s,and or BT s 2 weeks ago

wayney August 20th 2017, 11:15 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:
wayney wrote:my take for what it's worth....

I have P51's on my motor - would I take them off to change to AFR ... no way IF they are better I don't think it is enough to justify

If I was building an engine from scratch.... I would give them a try if the P51's were not available if that style head fit the build. I would rather spend my money with Kaase than AFR

I do like that they have a matching manifold . ( not sure how well it matches up but I would hope it does coming from the same mfg.)

My suspicion is that there is not enough HP difference in the heads that there are other areas in the engine that could make up the difference or cost the difference in MOST builds.

what I would like to see is a raised intake port P51 head that uses a CJ style intake

wayne

what ET does your p51 run,and what does the car weigh? what did you switch from?

somebody posted on comp plus,or one of those fourms that the p51 is no more? , Heard it from a guy on RJ that had an add looking for p51s,and or BT s 2 weeks ago

I didn't change from or to P51's . I built with P51's . what I was getting at is I would definitely not take P51's off an engine to switch to the AFR heads . My suspicion is that there is not enough HP difference between the 2 that in most builds they are not optimized and the difference would not be seen. If I was building an engine from scratch that this style head fit the build I would buy the P51 because Kaase has done so much for the bbf he would get my money.

wayne

BOSS 429 August 21st 2017, 8:07 am

ok,cool. how does it run et? speed?

dfree383 August 21st 2017, 1:41 pm

Hardy wrote:
wayney wrote:

what I would like to see is a raised intake port P51 head that uses a CJ style intake

wayne

This is what I've been saying for a while. Would love to see an offering for the big ford that does the same thing as the Victor 15 degree head does for the Windsor.

We call them A460 heads..... Very Happy

supervel45 August 21st 2017, 2:45 pm

That's what I kept thinking.^

HorsinAround August 21st 2017, 3:28 pm

wayney wrote:

I didn't change from or to P51's . I built with P51's . what I was getting at is I would definitely not take P51's off an engine to switch to the AFR heads . My suspicion is that there is not enough HP difference between the 2 that in most builds they are not optimized and the difference would not be seen. If I was building an engine from scratch that this style head fit the build I would buy the P51 because Kaase has done so much for the bbf he would get my money.
wayne

Did Kaase get his supply problem resolved?

wayney August 21st 2017, 8:39 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:ok,cool. how does it run et? speed?

10.50's , 3900lbs, street tires, 10.0:1cr , c6, real mufflers (turbo, not straight through)
It has EFI I am still tuning the fuel curve, and the converter is 900 rpm tight . its an odd combo. not optimized for engine, nitrous or pump gas. compromise of all.
wayne

wayney August 21st 2017, 8:44 pm

HorsinAround wrote:
wayney wrote:

I didn't change from or to P51's . I built with P51's . what I was getting at is I would definitely not take P51's off an engine to switch to the AFR heads . My suspicion is that there is not enough HP difference between the 2 that in most builds they are not optimized and the difference would not be seen. If I was building an engine from scratch that this style head fit the build I would buy the P51 because Kaase has done so much for the bbf he would get my money.
wayne

Did Kaase get his supply problem resolved?

not sure, I did say " If I was building an engine from scratch.... I would give them a try if the P51's were not available if that style head fit the build. I would rather spend my money with Kaase than AFR"

Hardy August 21st 2017, 9:04 pm

dfree383 wrote:
Hardy wrote:
wayney wrote:

what I would like to see is a raised intake port P51 head that uses a CJ style intake

wayne

This is what I've been saying for a while. Would love to see an offering for the big ford that does the same thing as the Victor 15 degree head does for the Windsor.

We call them A460 heads.....

Yeah, I guess. I meant something that would use the stock port location manifolds like the Victor 15 head does. But really, the A460s are affordable enough that there probably isn't much of a gap to fill between them and the P51s

68formalGT August 21st 2017, 9:32 pm

Hardy wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Hardy wrote:
wayney wrote:

what I would like to see is a raised intake port P51 head that uses a CJ style intake

wayne

This is what I've been saying for a while. Would love to see an offering for the big ford that does the same thing as the Victor 15 degree head does for the Windsor.

We call them A460 heads.....

Yeah, I guess. I meant something that would use the stock port location manifolds like the Victor 15 head does. But really, the A460s are affordable enough that there probably isn't much of a gap to fill between them and the P51s

LoL, yeah there's a huge difference between a stock port height P51/AFR dooe-r etc and the height of an A460 port.

wayney August 21st 2017, 10:10 pm

one of the problems with the A460 heads is they are a tight fit in a lot of factory ford chassis. Then headers and spark plug changes are a pain in the a** .

wayne

BOSS 429 August 21st 2017, 10:16 pm

wayney wrote:one of the problems with the A460 heads is they are a tight fit in a lot of factory ford chassis. Then headers and spark plug changes are a pain in the a** .

wayne

in the early 90s I Built , and installed a C460 HEADED 514CI ON A STOCK 10.300 deck block In a 1973 mustang, with no shock tower mod's

changin plugs was a pain

Hardy August 21st 2017, 10:33 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:
wayney wrote:one of the problems with the A460 heads is they are a tight fit in a lot of factory ford chassis. Then headers and spark plug changes are a pain in the a** .

wayne

in the early 90s I Built , and installed a C460 HEADED 514CI ON A STOCK 10.300 deck block In a 1973 mustang, with no shock tower mod's

changin plugs was a pain

Nice! How did those C heads work on that 514?

And I'd love to see under hood pics of that deal. My 72 mustang with Blue Thunder CJs is jam packed Up against the towers. I can't imagine it with a tall head like that

rmcomprandy August 22nd 2017, 8:56 am

Hardy wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Hardy wrote:
wayney wrote:

what I would like to see is a raised intake port P51 head that uses a CJ style intake

wayne

This is what I've been saying for a while. Would love to see an offering for the big ford that does the same thing as the Victor 15 degree head does for the Windsor.

We call them A460 heads.....

Yeah, I guess. I meant something that would use the stock port location manifolds like the Victor 15 head does. But really, the A460s are affordable enough that there probably isn't much of a gap to fill between them and the P51s

"Price Motorsports" makes intake flange adapters for using a stock style intake manifold; just like extending the intake flange 3/4 of an inch.
Of course they need to be port matched.
I have used them a few times for roots blower applications but, non blower manifolds certainly will fit, too.

BOSS 429 August 22nd 2017, 9:25 am

Hardy wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:
wayney wrote:one of the problems with the A460 heads is they are a tight fit in a lot of factory ford chassis. Then headers and spark plug changes are a pain in the a** .

wayne

in the early 90s I Built , and installed a C460 HEADED 514CI ON A STOCK 10.300 deck block In a 1973 mustang, with no shock tower mod's

changin plugs was a pain

Nice! How did those C heads work on that 514?

And I'd love to see under hood pics of that deal. My 72 mustang with Blue Thunder CJs is jam packed Up against the towers. I can't imagine it with a tall head like that

worked good, made around 945, but was not fun to change plugs at all. few years later he cut the towers off

Lem Evans August 22nd 2017, 9:01 pm

HorsinAround wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
68formalGT wrote:I've seen what Oakley can do with the P-51's in a mud truck with a vacuum restriction so when he gets done with Lem and his(he and Lem's?) build then I think we'll have a good idea what the potential really is. Then if you can talk someone into doing an engine swap from one to the other..........

He has promised me he'll get on the AFR project after he gets back from the divisional race in Bowling Green.

Thanks Lem. looking forward to the information.

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