Are there specialty catalogs for the 429-460 engines?

rmcomprandy wrote:I do build engines for a living and I guess that means I can have an oppinion about this,
I have three ways I'll build an engine:
1. The customer will get ALL the parts, right down to the last gasket, nut & bolt and I charge him simply my labor fee to put it all together correctly. A lot of the time, the parts which have been supplied DON'T fit and my time to modify those parts WILL be charged. I will supply NO PARTS for that build. IF there is a stoppage because he didn't get something, it will be put on hold untill HE gets it. Again, I supply nothing except what is involved with doing the labor and incidentals for assembly. This usually ends with the customer paying his bill and picking up his unfinished engine because that customer didn't fully realize ALL the parts involved in the project or how they interact with fitment to one another.
2. I will build the engine with parts I supply for the job to be done, (because I have found certain parts to fit without modifications or do that job better than others), and all the nit-pick stuff I will also supply and get the job done in a timely manner.
3. The customer brings me a core engine and I supply the needed parts to rebuild and modify it to fit best into whatever type venue it will be used with his end budget in mind.

The last two options create good will and satisfied customers.
The first option creates animosity because, that customer thought he knew what was needed and he is perplexed because I won't help with HIS decisions. Now he has no recourse except to proclaim I am a "bad guy" however, he CAN'T claim that I cheated him; (which is probably the reason he insisted to get his own parts to begin with).

Randy,

Interesting view point that, under some circumstances, I agree with you, but I would like a little clarification.

How would you approach a scenario where a guy/gal has been saving and buying parts for months/years in an effort to get the big stuff bought before taking it to the machine shop. For purposes of this example, let's say he/she bought the block, heads, pistons, crank, rods, intake, carb, and distributor. Obviously, lots of small stuff still remains. This person bought new and used parts, but wasn't trying to nickle and dime anybody. Would this fall under the first option you listed? Let's say this person wants the engine machined, assembled, and broke in on the dyno.

If a person drops off an engine, gets an itemized quote on an engine build (parts selection, prices, ect by the builder), and starts trying to bargain shop while taking time/real estate from your business...then I completely see where you're coming from .

Have a good day!
Michael

BigBlockRanger wrote:Damn, the way I read it is the guy wanted to know if there were any specific BBF catalogs out there. It's a legitimate question and I think FAR too much has been read into it.

Unfortunate for him PAW ( Performance Automotive Warehouse ) only sell Early Chrysler parts now. Last year they would have had the BBF catalog he is looking for.

http://www.pawinc.com/


I still have to love Paul though.

" so I can show my engine builder some prices I have found on the net to compare to his suppliers! "

I read that the same way Paul did. His engine guy has the parts, he wants a better price.

G-

Jon

G-Code wrote:

BigBlockRanger wrote:Damn, the way I read it is the guy wanted to know if there were any specific BBF catalogs out there. It's a legitimate question and I think FAR too much has been read into it.

Unfortunate for him PAW ( Performance Automotive Warehouse ) only sell Early Chrysler parts now. Last year they would have had the BBF catalog he is looking for.

http://www.pawinc.com/


I still have to love Paul though.

" so I can show my engine builder some prices I have found on the net to compare to his suppliers! "

I read that the same way Paul did. His engine guy has the parts, he wants a better price.

G-

Jon

cant blame someone to try and save money . the time is money thing , the part isnt right or there is a defect , shop has to correct it or have you send it back .. your time and the shops time is wasted . one can ask for a quote , say on Randy's 1.2.3. then the engine owner can roll the dice . dont forget quotes take time

96Mustang460cid wrote:

rmcomprandy wrote:I do build engines for a living and I guess that means I can have an oppinion about this,
I have three ways I'll build an engine:
1. The customer will get ALL the parts, right down to the last gasket, nut & bolt and I charge him simply my labor fee to put it all together correctly. A lot of the time, the parts which have been supplied DON'T fit and my time to modify those parts WILL be charged. I will supply NO PARTS for that build. IF there is a stoppage because he didn't get something, it will be put on hold untill HE gets it. Again, I supply nothing except what is involved with doing the labor and incidentals for assembly. This usually ends with the customer paying his bill and picking up his unfinished engine because that customer didn't fully realize ALL the parts involved in the project or how they interact with fitment to one another.
2. I will build the engine with parts I supply for the job to be done, (because I have found certain parts to fit without modifications or do that job better than others), and all the nit-pick stuff I will also supply and get the job done in a timely manner.
3. The customer brings me a core engine and I supply the needed parts to rebuild and modify it to fit best into whatever type venue it will be used with his end budget in mind.

The last two options create good will and satisfied customers.
The first option creates animosity because, that customer thought he knew what was needed and he is perplexed because I won't help with HIS decisions. Now he has no recourse except to proclaim I am a "bad guy" however, he CAN'T claim that I cheated him; (which is probably the reason he insisted to get his own parts to begin with).

Randy,

Interesting view point that, under some circumstances, I agree with you, but I would like a little clarification.

How would you approach a scenario where a guy/gal has been saving and buying parts for months/years in an effort to get the big stuff bought before taking it to the machine shop. For purposes of this example, let's say he/she bought the block, heads, pistons, crank, rods, intake, carb, and distributor. Obviously, lots of small stuff still remains. This person bought new and used parts, but wasn't trying to nickle and dime anybody. Would this fall under the first option you listed? Let's say this person wants the engine machined, assembled, and broke in on the dyno.

If a person drops off an engine, gets an itemized quote on an engine build (parts selection, prices, ect by the builder), and starts trying to bargain shop while taking time/real estate from your business...then I completely see where you're coming from .

Have a good day!
Michael

Your example is a CLASSIC #1 scenario and, (in most cases), he will need to supply EVERYTHING or go somewhere else unless those parts are exactly what I would have used and he UNDERSTANDS they may need to be modified. AND, modifications are not free.

Whenever there is a future problem during building that engine with SOME parts he didn't get, (90% of the time the problem stems from a part which won't work in it's present condition), it is inevitable that, in his eyes, the parts you supplied for him are always the cause of those problems. I won't allow myself to be put into that position.

Simple point; here is an example which can happen quite often - if I supply the rotating assembly, the pin fit on the rod small end and piston will be made to be correct before I assemble it. If he supplies those parts they won't be correct, (although they may actually go together), and him paying for me to make them correct now becomes a problem to him because I won't use them while incorrect and I won't fit them for free so, the engine just sits.

Randy,
In a pistonpin/rod connection, which is more the problem? The rods?, or the pistons. I remember you saying rod variencies are common. But the pistons too? HMNNN.
Thanks.
Al

G-Code wrote:

Paul Kane wrote:[\]So what you're saying is that you have investigated several builders, you have settled on one that you trust to build your engine...and now you are going to nickel & dime him to death over price differences which don't take into consideration all his Q&A, expertise, and overall support, etc?

Hmmmmm......

Hey Paul,

Don't take this wrong but I think I love you.


G-

Jon

HaHa!

Are you going to make the Tom Papp Memorial this year?

72mav wrote:Randy,
In a pistonpin/rod connection, which is more the problem? The rods?, or the pistons. I remember you saying rod variencies are common. But the pistons too? HMNNN.
Thanks.
Al

Most pistons/pin clearance within comercial rotating assemblies come at .0006"/.0008" and that is not enough for a high horsepower engine. There WILL be galling and metal transfer during running if the engine makes any real horsepower. The rods usually come even smaller.

Paul Kane wrote:

G-Code wrote:

HaHa!

Are you going to make the Tom Papp Memorial this year?

As of right now No.

G

G-Code wrote:

BigBlockRanger wrote:Damn, the way I read it is the guy wanted to know if there were any specific BBF catalogs out there. It's a legitimate question and I think FAR too much has been read into it.

Unfortunate for him PAW ( Performance Automotive Warehouse ) only sell Early Chrysler parts now. Last year they would have had the BBF catalog he is looking for.

http://www.pawinc.com/


I still have to love Paul though.

" so I can show my engine builder some prices I have found on the net to compare to his suppliers! "

I read that the same way Paul did. His engine guy has the parts, he wants a better price.

G-

Jon

Apparently he feels his guy is way out in left field on price. His builder may very well be getting screwed by his suppliers. Heck, I do the same thing with the things I buy, not just car parts. I'm not going to naively over-pay for something. I'm gonna research it and make the best decision for me. Example: I had to buy a hot surface igniter for my home HVAC unit. $57 local or $29 on-line + free shipping. Now which one do you think I bought? Had I not checked it out, I would have paid nearly double for the exact same part.

Yeah, Heaven forbid a person from finding a part or service from someone that isn't a contributor to this forum.

The last engine that I let the builder buy all the parts was a piece of shit!!! Ever since then I do the research on the parts and buy them myself then have them do all the machining and fitting necassary but don't bitch if they charge a little extra (as long as within reason). This is especially important in my area as noone specializes in these engines and you should hear the stupid stuff that some of the builders suggest. I have a builder that I trust to do good work and his attention to detail is impeccable but he admits he knows nothing about the tricks of building power with these engines and he prefers that I buy my own parts, we have a non written agreement that I spec my own parts and I get what the combo has to offer at my own risk if the parts are mis-matched.

bigblok2000ranger wrote:The last engine that I let the builder buy all the parts was a piece of shit!!! Ever since then I do the research on the parts and buy them myself then have them do all the machining and fitting necassary but don't bitch if they charge a little extra (as long as within reason). This is especially important in my area as noone specializes in these engines and you should hear the stupid stuff that some of the builders suggest. I have a builder that I trust to do good work and his attention to detail is impeccable but he admits he knows nothing about the tricks of building power with these engines and he prefers that I buy my own parts, we have a non written agreement that I spec my own parts and I get what the combo has to offer at my own risk if the parts are mis-matched.

call me crazy... but if your going to spend some big cash on a complete engine, id be willing to DRIVE a good distance to have it done right, by someone who knows big block fords... I only trust people who specialize in big block ford when it comes to my engine, and only let guys who business centers around Ford products work on my Torino... no way a camaro or sbc guy is working on my stuff..

Shane

I won't buy a steak, then take it to a resatuant and ask them to cook it for me. I'd be afraid they'd piss on it and call it a marinade.

It's hard to know who to trust sometimes and I trust the guy I work with. Just wanted to point out this is the way I prefer to do my engines, I didn't like the way Paul jumped on the OP.

maverick wrote:I won't buy a steak, then take it to a resatuant and ask them to cook it for me. I'd be afraid they'd piss on it and call it a marinade.

AFAIK, Randy is an engine builder...not a machine shop. IMHO, his scenario is a better fit to your analogy. A machine shop -- especially one that isn't familiar with your engine family -- is a looser set of criteria that may or may not fall within that analogy. Besides, under your analogy, every engine build will need to start with a clean sheet of paper and no pre-existing parts. I find this unlikely because people regularly change/step-up his or her combo. Even a dramatic change may reuse the rotating assembly (crank & rods), cylinder heads (get them ported), ect.

I do plan on taking my engine to a BBF specialist. Although it sounds like, due to his criteria, Randy (not to single you out ) wouldn't be interested in my individual build, I will drive several hours to find a shop that I've grown to know/trust from that person's postings on this (and the other) board.

Have a good day!
Michael

rmcomprandy wrote:

72mav wrote:Randy,
In a pistonpin/rod connection, which is more the problem? The rods?, or the pistons. I remember you saying rod variencies are common. But the pistons too? HMNNN.
Thanks.
Al

Most pistons/pin clearance within comercial rotating assemblies come at .0006"/.0008" and that is not enough for a high horsepower engine. There WILL be galling and metal transfer during running if the engine makes any real horsepower. The rods usually come even smaller.

So how much clearance we talking about here?
Thanks.
Al

72mav wrote:

rmcomprandy wrote:

72mav wrote:Randy,
In a pistonpin/rod connection, which is more the problem? The rods?, or the pistons. I remember you saying rod variencies are common. But the pistons too? HMNNN.
Thanks.
Al

Most pistons/pin clearance within comercial rotating assemblies come at .0006"/.0008" and that is not enough for a high horsepower engine. There WILL be galling and metal transfer during running if the engine makes any real horsepower. The rods usually come even smaller.

So how much clearance we talking about here?
Thanks.
Al

When it comes to pin clearance, there is NO "one size fits all".

Whatever minimum clearance you can run WITHOUT having any interference or galling with the piston, pin or rod is what you want.
Clearances between .0004" and .0018" are common depending upon the diameter of the pin, the strength of the pin, the length of the pin, at what heat the assenbly will run, is it continuous running or is it on & off, how much pressure will be exerted, how wide is the pin end of the rod, how much oil is around the pin, what is the viscosity of that oil, what is the temperatire of that oil...???
All the variables will determine the correct pin clearance for THAT application.

A grocery getter will be fine around .0004" but, not an engine making any power. I have seen as much as .0024" NEEDED in a tractor engine with 150 pounds of boost.

96Mustang460cid wrote:

How would you approach a scenario where a guy/gal has been saving and buying parts for months/years in an effort to get the big stuff bought before taking it to the machine shop. For purposes of this example, let's say he/she bought the block, heads, pistons, crank, rods, intake, carb, and distributor. Obviously, lots of small stuff still remains. This person bought new and used parts, but wasn't trying to nickle and dime anybody. Would this fall under the first option you listed? Let's say this person wants the engine machined, assembled, and broke in on the dyno.

This could be worked around by just buying all the parts from your engine builder. I am sure if you bought all your parts from Randy over a couple years he would work with you.

I use customer supplied parts all the time. What they paid for them is of no concern to me. I reduce my price (on a complete engine, stroker kit, etc.) by the amount I would otherwise pay for the parts and also charge for cleaning and fit if needed. It doesn't effect my bottom line and it helps control cost for the customer.

torinocobra429scj wrote:so I can show my engine builder some prices I have found on the net to compare to his suppliers!

SCJ,

This part is where you got yourself in trouble. There is no sugar coating what you did. I know you would piss off any engine builder doing the above. It had nothing to do with you, and I quote:

torinocobra429scj wrote:Catalogs will be for me to look at and try to see what I can afford. Thanks for nothing

Randy,

I have seen exactly what you're talking about with a friend of mine who is also an engine builder. People bring him a basket case and with all the cheapest parts they can find and then complain to him when their parts don't fit and he is going to charge extra for the extra time spent making everything "correct". If they want to play "engine builder", then at least they can finish their job and get all the pieces.

96Mustang460cid wrote:Randy,

Interesting view point that, under some circumstances, I agree with you, but I would like a little clarification.

How would you approach a scenario where a guy/gal has been saving and buying parts for months/years in an effort to get the big stuff bought before taking it to the machine shop. For purposes of this example, let's say he/she bought the block, heads, pistons, crank, rods, intake, carb, and distributor. Obviously, lots of small stuff still remains. This person bought new and used parts, but wasn't trying to nickle and dime anybody. Would this fall under the first option you listed? Let's say this person wants the engine machined, assembled, and broke in on the dyno.

Michael,

I am one of the kind of individuals you talking about above. I've been aquiring parts now for 4 years. I've purchased my parts, and some complete assemblies, thru the forum contributors such as Scott Johnson, Paul Kane, Adney, Lem, and others. Now just because I purchased these parts "finished", I know if I wanted Randy to finish the build for me, he would go thru every part and adjust it to his liking. It has nothing to do with saving money why I did it the way I did. I enjoy the collecting of parts, and I'm sure Randy would probably not agree on every part I selected, but I'm trusting him with his knowledge to put together all the parts and make it live. I will have spent more than if I just saved for the last four years and have him build everything from scatch. I find it funny when individuals "think" they can do better than an engine builder who knows what he is doing. Individuals are willing to have they engines f*&^%d up by a so-so engine builder than to have their engines built by an engine builder who has contributed to this forum, and who is good.

IMHO

Dave

jasonf wrote:This could be worked around by just buying all the parts from your engine builder. I am sure if you bought all your parts from Randy over a couple years he would work with you.

Some of these parts have been ran in several engines I've had over the years. Should I throw them away or put them on the shelve and buy a brand new version of the same thing? Whenever possible, I have bought parts from forum members (block from Chuck Stevens, Lem = ~$5,500 or so worth of parts, crank from Adney Brown, ect, ect, ect).

I want my engine dyno'd at the machine shop before it comes back home. Therefore, I need/want all the exterior components built and fabricated. I bought the block to fabricate the motor plates. I bought the cylinder heads to make the headers and intake manifold (needed/wanted for dyno). I bought the crank shaft and water pump to fabricate the pulley arrangement and mount the accessories (needed/wanted for dyno). I bought the turbo, wastegate, and BOV for the hot side and cold side (needed/wanted for dyno).

Besides...how do I hide the 'true' cost from my wife if I write a check for $$$ to pay the engine builder?

DJOHAGIN wrote:]Michael,

I am one of the kind of individuals you talking about above. I've been aquiring parts now for 4 years. I've purchased my parts, and some complete assemblies, thru the forum contributors such as Scott Johnson, Paul Kane, Adney, Lem, and others. Now just because I purchased these parts "finished", I know if I wanted Randy to finish the build for me, he would go thru every part and adjust it to his liking. It has nothing to do with saving money why I did it the way I did. I enjoy the collecting of parts, and I'm sure Randy would probably not agree on every part I selected, but I'm trusting him with his knowledge to put together all the parts and make it live. I will have spent more than if I just saved for the last four years and have him build everything from scatch. I find it funny when individuals "think" they can do better than an engine builder who knows what he is doing. Individuals are willing to have they engines f*&^%d up by a so-so engine builder than to have their engines built by an engine builder who has contributed to this forum, and who is good.

IMHO

Dave

Dave,

I completely understand and agree with what you're saying. My goal has never been to build a cheap engine. I am buying some good parts and will ask that my engine builder fill in the blanks. If that person sees a mismatched component, I am 98% open to input/thoughts. I put a LOT of value in proper valve train and camshaft selection and haven't purchased any of that stuff. Well, I bought the heads assembled, but I expect the spring package to change when the camshaft is designed.

I know that some of my parts are mismatched. I started one build and changed directions. I'm willing to accept the lost HP this parts selection will bring with it. Although the A460 heads are not a good match for my RPM range, I really like having 18 head bolts on a turbo engine. Is it required...no. Would a set of P51's make more HP...maybe/maybe not??? Would a set of P51s build more torque when not in boost...probably. Will I ever regret that missing torque...I doubt it. At least I know I have room to step up the HP if I choose to... JasonF: will the engine builder make me buy a 100% brand new engine again? Or, can I reuse some of the 'good' parts I've already bought?

I make mistakes and learn. There will always be somebody who can fabricate better than I can. But, that doesn't mean I will always pay for their expertise and abilities. I will not assembly my current engine, but I will assemble others. I value some things enough that I will pay for the expert. Other things will get my 110% DIY effort and I accept the short falls that come with that .

Have a good day!
Michael

This is an interesting thread. It gives a good inside look at the different attitudes and preferences of builders, machinists, and customers. Due to budgetary constraints, I have always built stock type engines with an upgraded cam and intake. I relied on my machinist (The Shop) to take my nasty core, clean it all up, supply the new parts, and set up my heads with the proper springs for whatever cam I would use. Then I would take all of these parts home and screw 'em together, ie "play engine builder". I remember many years ago, I walked into his place with a Summit hat on, and he took it off of my head and threw it into the trash can. He did give me a "The Shop" hat though.

On other occasions, he has suggested that I try to find a better price than his supplier. In 9 out of 10 cases, he had the better price, or the shipping would negate the difference. When I wanted to try the SIR rods, he beat Summit by 100 bucks.

I "think" that building record breaking race type stuff is fun and interesting for him, but he would rather do the machine work and send you home with the parts to screw it all together yourself. He will do either though, and in 20+ years, he has never screwed up anything of mine. Bracket racers and 5.0's in particular tend to get on his nerves. He has put together record holding 428 CJ's, and will say he can't stand an FE.

So here I am, and I have met a bunch of y'all at the 1st bash and bought parts from a dozen people on here. My next build is going to be a 408W or a 521. For the 521, I have already bought a set of SCJ's from Lem, and I want to call Adney for a rotating assembly. Next, I was going to call Randy for a custom cam and all of the related valvetrain gear. I was going to take my block and heads to my neighbor (EB Porting, who works out of The Shop) to machine my stuff and set up my heads. Keep in mind that this is not a "race" engine, but a hotter version of what I'm used to screwing together.

How do I pull this off without stepping on any toes? How do I pull this off without it being a complete clusterfuck? The OP may appreciate some honest answers and insight as to what goes through the minds of people "in the business".

My comments are being taken completely Out Of Context.

If a person has no problem with "adjusting" the parts he has and paying me to do so, then that is not a problem.
The "Context" was and the problem is that person, (and there are a LOT of them), getting his own parts to save a few dollars and assumes that everything he got is now "ready to go" and believes there is no need to further spend any time or money making them right.
THAT was the context as I understood it to be.

OR, as Paul said, someone who bickers about only a few dollars to "nickel & dime you to death", because he wants the lowest price he has found for any part to be matched. I and other professional builders are NOT "Best Buy".

I have no problem working WITH somebody if they are not dictatorial and realize the parts they have may not be dimensionally correct or may be incorrect altogether.
I have built several complete engines for members on this forum who understand the "working with" philosophy.

96Mustang460cid wrote:

Besides...how do I hide the 'true' cost from my wife if I write a check for $$$ to pay the engine builder?

Holy crap, read the whole thread and only one funny line in it...

Randy I will admit I took your comment out of context also, the clarification sounds alot better disposition than the way some things seemed to be headed. Working with an engine builder to assemble what I have come up with as a combo is a nice experience. But I understand things don't always fit out of the box as well and have no problem when things need to be adjusted or modified.