piston coatings

We need to call the Governor of Texas, we have a situation at Coug's house, someone has broke into his place and is now using his computer to make a non-negative post..........we cannot have this............


Well the last line gives some hope...............

Holy crap!! I go one day without looking in on the site, and Gerry dumps a fresh load of poop into the propeller. Did this putz really call Randy a "Yo-yo builder", for God's sake??

do you guys read before you open your traps ? i asked if any professionals had an opinion on coatings-diamond recommends coating the skirts of large stroke engines -and for $ 130 i was wondering if it was really worth it or was a waist of freaken money
for god sake dont turn every fuc8ing thread into a pissing match for your egos- i asked a ? didnt call anyone names until i was hit first

and bruno - blow me take your 2 stage nos motor and stick it up your - hummm ars - 5.61 with 2 stages -i would be a little upset if i were you tuff guy think about that one for a while-and dont come back on here and say -well i only got edelbrock heads- your motor made as much power as mine did with them -so lets here your excuse now

badnotch wrote:

Why would you be asking such an involved question concerning miniscule improvements when you know very little about or, of who you are inquiring ... ? AND, you're even a LAZY typist to boot.

I like helping people but, I just hate it when I waste my time.

did you you read the title ? im not here to start a pissing match- ive never heard of probe industries- so freaking what - i run diamond and have ran cp as well 2 of the best pistons manf on the planet

i was asking a ? who he was probe doesnt like to use coatings thats cool -its his opinion - thats why i was asking the ? and if you remember - the ? was directed at

pro engine builders not yo yo builders

AND ... you still have NO idea with whom you're talking and who exactly does this for a living and who doesn't, lol. (all caps OR all lower case letters ... same difference ... LAZY typist).
Asking a question makes people presume you might know a LITTLE bit about what you're talking about but, it proves to be NOT the case.

EDIT: Have a nice day ...!

Notch: you are a douche bag go away

Gerry,....Just a helpful hint here.......Google "Engine Masters Challenge" and see if any familiar names pop up.

AND ... you still have NO idea with whom you're talking and who exactly does this for a living and who doesn't, lol. (all caps OR all lower case letters ... same difference ... LAZY typist).
Asking a question makes people presume you might know a LITTLE bit about what you're talking about but, it proves to be NOT the case.

EDIT: Have a nice day ...!

well again read what i asked - is it freaken worth it or not - thats all i asked ,if i knew i would not be asking you -and as usual -you get all the shit starters on here involving them in something just to do it -

so i guess i got my answer and wont ask anymore - have a good day as well yo yo

badnotch wrote: blow me

You probably mean blow by ....... if you dont hone it properly or get the proper rings could cause another Black Death issue ...

bruno wrote:

badnotch wrote: blow me

You probably mean blow by ....... if you dont hone it properly or get the proper rings could cause another Black Death issue ...

GERRY


SENCE YOU DIDN'T GET IT..

FOR WHAT YOU ARE DOING IT IS NOT WORTH IT........


REPEAT

FOR WHAT YOU ARE DOING IT IS NOT WORTH IT........


IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS MAYBE YOU SHOULD ASK YOUR LAST ENGINE BUILDER HE DID SUCH A GREAT JOB ON YOUR LAST ENGINE....

AND IF YOU STILL DO NOT BELIEVE US ASK YOUR BUDDY LES


THE COST OF PUTTING THE COATINGS ON VS THE GAINS ARE PRETTY MUCH WASTED FOR YOUR APPLICATION.......


IF YOU HAVE PROBLEMS UNDERSTANDING THIS PLEASE P.M. ME YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL SEND YOU A BOX OF CLUES SO YOU WILL HAVE SOME....



HAVE A NICE DAY
RANDY

Pistons are the engines weakest link when it comes to heat. How often will you read of competitors dropping out of races because of burned pistons. All good engine builders know that tunig an engine for “optimum lean”, maximizes horsepower by generating more heat in the combustion chamber. However, if too lean a mixture is run, pistons will be heat damaged (black death, skirt scuffing, “holed” pistons or missing top ring gland). Oxygen and fuel is spark ignited under compression to generate heat. The heat causes gaseous products of combustion to expand rapidly, forcing the piston downwards for the power stroke. Generating more heat causes more gas volume expansion (more H.P) but can also melt or burn aluminum pistons. Leaning down the air-fuel mixture to where oxygen is proportionally too high can cause metal to be burned away (oxidized), just like an oxy-acetylene cutting torch.

its seems like in some instances piston coating is a band aid ......

bruno wrote:Pistons are the engines weakest link when it comes to heat. How often will you read of competitors dropping out of races because of burned pistons. All good engine builders know that tunig an engine for “optimum lean”, maximizes horsepower by generating more heat in the combustion chamber. However, if too lean a mixture is run, pistons will be heat damaged (black death, skirt scuffing, “holed” pistons or missing top ring gland). Oxygen and fuel is spark ignited under compression to generate heat. The heat causes gaseous products of combustion to expand rapidly, forcing the piston downwards for the power stroke. Generating more heat causes more gas volume expansion (more H.P) but can also melt or burn aluminum pistons. Leaning down the air-fuel mixture to where oxygen is proportionally too high can cause metal to be burned away (oxidized), just like an oxy-acetylene cutting torch.

its seems like in some instances piston coating is a band aid ......

Guys, please bear with Nick if it seems he's belaboring the obvious. He's breaking the issue down to it's simplest terms in order to reach a target audience.

google is a great tool Gerry ..... i just love tools

There are different coatings that are available for every part of a piston,both inside and out.
Maybe a good thing to do if you are thinking about a coating would be to visit a site of a company that coats parts,such as Calico,Polymer Dynamics,Embee or Swain and see their descriptions of what they offer,and what they claim each coating does.

The piston top=idea is to reject heat back into chamber,using more of the energy produced to make power.The theory of this practice is excellent,in practice how it works depends on how good the heat rejection properties of the coating work. The biggest problem I have seen is that usually the better the coating works,the less chance there is that it will stay on the piston.If it comes off the results can be bad.Also the thickness must be taken into account ,as generally the thicker it is the better it works,but deck clearance must be adjusted for this.What is generally offered and used nowdays seems to be a very good compromise.

The ring grooves=there are a few versions of a hard anodise available.These protect and prolong the life of the grooves.This process really helps if you experience micro-welding,localized spots where the ring and groove are sort of spot welding themselves together.Generally this coating is used in endurance applications(NASCAR).I have heard reports that the rings take longer to "seat" and dont see many drag racers using this option.By the way,its about $40-$50 per piston to do this operation.An anodised groove is not as smoothe as an uncoated groove (at least from a high end company)probably the reason for the longer break in time.If you are considering this,remember that the grooves need to be cut wider to accomodate the coating,otherwise you will need to buy special,expensive rings.

The skirts=many options here.Hard anodise with and w/o teflon,usually only used when nitromethane is in the fuel,although a few blown alcohol and heavy N2O users are doing this.Helps with the scuffing(black death) phenomenon.There are a few different brews of this available.
There is the standard teflon type coating,that wears off after a while,and a newer version that lasts longer.These are very popular with Pro Stock and Comp type motors.Some companies supply this coating as a no charge item on their shelf parts.I have had mixed reports as to whether or not there are really any HP benefits.But ,if there are oiling issues or heat related issues,this coating has saved many pistons and blocks from being ruined.Generally the pistons are run tighter in the bore than pistons w/o this coating,so normally its ok to do this w/o discussing it with the piston manufacture (as long as they didnt know you were going to do this and already tighten things up for you).

The pin bores=usually these are left uncoated,or the coating is honed out during the pin fit process.If you have problems in this area,there are oiling methods and wrist pin sizes and coatings(DLC) that usually cure any problems

The inside of the piston=there are a few different coatings that are known as oil shedding compounds.The idea is to prevent oil from sticking on the piston.I guess the use of this coating depends on how much oil you think is sticking to your pistons.I also think there are some coatings in this catagory that are supposed to draw heat from the piston and transfer it to the oil,and a cool piston is a happy piston.

The issue......broken down further yet.

Great Read Bruno,, but like I said for his Application it is not cost affective...(street driven)


Randy

At the end of the day.......coatings etc. are a poor subsitute for enough piston to wall clearence and/or a good tune up.

Lem Evans wrote:At the end of the day.......coatings etc. are a poor subsitute for enough piston to wall clearence and/or a good tune up.

hum im learning Lem ...seems to me its a Band aid

bruno wrote:

Lem Evans wrote:At the end of the day.......coatings etc. are a poor subsitute for enough piston to wall clearence and/or a good tune up.

hum im learning Lem ...seems to me its a Band aid

That would be the case in most sportsman applications were the $s could go to other things that are more needed.

This thread proves why only a few can be considered a HeRo.................

richter69 wrote:This thread proves why only a few can be considered a HeRo.................

and a few others are consider ZeRo'S

Nick ...you been sleepin with DaCoug ??? you sure are contributing alot to the TeCh here lately

badnotch wrote:I love giving mustache rides to LS owners

that about sums it up.

if you wanna listen to the coating manufacturers, they are worth about 20% more hp.
if you wanna listen to real world testing...........you have to read the first couple of responses.
up to you to decide.

Don't waste your money on the coatings for your build.

If it makes you feel any better about my opinion, I have the training to be a "professional" engine builder but choose to do what I do so I can enjoy racing and not having to work with customers on the weekends at the track. I have built (designed, spec'd, blue printed, built and ran, everything but the actual machining which I outsource to a super stock engine builder) a few 7 second motors, by the way, including my current junk.

I put peanut butter on my bread....

Now kids play nice or I'll have to send your friends home.....