cubic inch vs. "the budget"

Those big C's will take alot of MULAH to hardware correctly as you already well know

I dont know Nick, a full tilt P51 deal is a good chuck of change, honestly I'd do a TFS A head plus you get the extra clamping of the 18 bolt. You gotta buy harward but its cheaper for the A heads. You might could sell the C heads you have...................Them Oakely 598 deals make a lot of steam n/a, stick your fogger on it and let er rip.

your kinda in the same boat as I am with the chassis deal, I'm outta car.....I dont really want to redo it. What I need to do is get a damn cookie cutter, get a kick ass 4150 carb, some 28-10.5's and come down here and mop up mod street lol. This Lawton track is trying to get some stuff going.man there is a ton of little tire racing around here right now.

Is Adney's 4.600" crankshaft a 2.200" or 2.100" journal?
At Nick's performance goal level......I'd think the shorter Boss snout would be a good option....Adney can do that.

looking at around 3 grand for the right A's and thats with ss valves... I would throw charlie 4 grand and those bare C's in the closet...for the extra grand your gonna get Ti. intakes and way more "head"...lol plus you're gonna need headers, an intake, new plumb job, rockers, and all that anyway...

my questions are:

which head/chamber design would be better suited for a large dose of nitrous? the larger chambered A or the small chamber yates based C in regards to timing sensitivity, burn rate and such...

also my understanding is the C head will produce a lighter piston, but being a smaller chamber how would that effect the piston design when trying to get a good compression height for the large shot of spray... I heard lem speak of a "spherical dish" once...which was very interesting to say the least. I imagine the C's small chamber combined with around 13-1 desired compression, a smallish cam, and with the right length rod that one could create a pretty bad ass piston with this "spherical dish" deal... not to mention the hard anodized coating for nitrous I've seen popping up from diamond recently...

these are just a few unanswered questions I had when I was debating the A/C delima...because the increased money aspect of going with the C's (shaft rockers, Ti valves and porting) is just that...expendable. I went with the A's because I figured they would kill me just as fast as the C's when its all said and done...

bruno wrote:with all these 1000 hp p51 builds , do you think we could get 1050-1100 , my point is that i could do a set of max build p51 for way less then finishing then c-heads ....... sorry about going off topic

a guy told me the A head would make more power than a p51 and i'd say he knows.i'd be willing to bet the A head would make a "lot"more on the hose than a p51.

cool40 wrote:

bruno wrote:with all these 1000 hp p51 builds , do you think we could get 1050-1100 , my point is that i could do a set of max build p51 for way less then finishing then c-heads ....... sorry about going off topic

a guy told me the A head would make more power than a p51 and i'd say he knows.i'd be willing to bet the A head would make a "lot"more on the hose than a p51.

I'd say fabio has at least 4 grand into his p51's... enough to get those C's rollin...maybe a little more to do em' right...

138 wrote:

cool40 wrote:

bruno wrote:with all these 1000 hp p51 builds , do you think we could get 1050-1100 , my point is that i could do a set of max build p51 for way less then finishing then c-heads ....... sorry about going off topic

a guy told me the A head would make more power than a p51 and i'd say he knows.i'd be willing to bet the A head would make a "lot"more on the hose than a p51.

I'd say fabio has at least 4 grand into his p51's... enough to get those C's rollin...maybe a little more to do em' right...

A or C would be the best bet on the hose.big runners like the hose!

Lem Evans wrote:Is Adney's 4.600" crankshaft a 2.200" or 2.100" journal?

The 4.600" forgings of which I am aware are 2.200" rod journal (Ohio Crankshaft).

It's my speculation that the raw 4.500" forgings, when indexed, can often get another 0.050" of rod throw for the 4.600" stroke.

Paul

going to ask a couple of more questions ,

What is the limit on a wet sump deal ? rpm , hp level ?

We have also have had the debate on shaft vs roller/girdle , can you run a roller/girdle deal thru the traps at 7800 -8000 ?


Lem i was doing some research and i pulled up a thread from speed talk this is what you had posted :

479 cfm with a 2.380" valve...45* angle valve . Butt kicking deal for PG deal for drag racing . Keith is correct to ask about the "C" head.....power band is higher . Sorry to ask too many questions.....but is this a pull truck ? , 3000# door car with a glide ? , or a r.e.d. @ 1800# ?
I do know that you ask for 1150 hp...but...in certain applications , the "A" stuff can be much quicker than the peak power would indicate


here is the complete thread ---- http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8296&hilit=a460

My question is have gain anymore info on these heads , meaning r & d/technology throughout the last 5 years ? You had made reference to phillips deal making 400-500 passes and only replacing rockers and springs( at 300 passes) , have we made an improvement on those numbers thru out the years with newer technology or better yet metalology

Seems to me that if you're building for 1050-1100 HP, the word "budget" no longer applies. You have to buy parts capable of doing the job or you wind up with a bunch of blowed up and broken parts.

BigDave65 wrote:Seems to me that if you're building for 1050-1100 HP, the word "budget" no longer applies. You have to buy parts capable of doing the job or you wind up with a bunch of blowed up and broken parts.

i used the word "budget" to give myself a limit on spending for the new build , not using the word " budget " as how cheap i can build 1200 hp , i have 15 to spend on an upgraded build , if i have to still put 8000 plus just to get the c-heads done it will put me out of the "budget" . I do have some sponsorship deals in the works so it will make it easier on my "budget" and of course i have the old parts that i can re-coop some money but that will go back into the chassis, tranny, etc.. IDT, Kaase P-51, TFS A, C-heads ........... I believe the C's and the IDT's would be out of the question ...got to remember the only thing that would be reused on the build is the block, and the D/B

bruno wrote:
What is the limit on a wet sump deal ? rpm , hp level ?

Depends on the application and what you might need for your build. Racers have managed many thousands of horswepower while using internal oil pumps. Some Top Fuel teams were still using internal oil pumps as recently as ~10 years ago, and the reason the last few teams eventually changed to dry sump was due to the stiff NHRA penalties for oiling down the track when you kick out a rod (cheaper to go dry sump than pay the penalty for the oil slick).

Paul

if you compare the A & C heads all you looking at is the rocker setup.you dont gota have shaft rockers to do what you want.the rest is about the same money,valves,springs,castings etc.i got the ww's from Charlie for my IDT's becouse of the new one piece stands.when you start with bare castings and need all the parts like i did then the shaft rockers aint much more than studs,guid plates,good rocker arms,and girdles.the shaft deal also can be had in most any ratio you want too,which could mean a 1.8 rocker "could" put you in the area of keeping the cam you have,new cam=$400+.just a thought.

C heads work and can be done on a "reasonable" budget. But they are not an "out of the box" deal like The new TFS A460's.

But if you already own the castings, TI Valves and Shaft rockers are the same cost for each head, same goes with the porting and prep by the time you get everything set-up and properly reworked their is no major cost difference compairing apples to apples.

The A460 stuff does have a few different shelf intakes and a TR avaliable where the C460 stuff is a little more limiter or you'll need adapters.

And for headers, you'll need them with either set of heads.


IMO Reuse your crank and make a 572, New Pistons, New Rods, Bearings and Rings, Have Charlie Prep and finish the C460's you have, Get the Good Valve Train Parts, Reuse you NO2 stuff on a FR C460 Intake. .

Sell your Eddies, Intake, Valve Train and Headers to help finance some stuff.

The Wet Sump will work fine, talk with Lem about a Custom pan.

You should be able to get everything in for under 15K and get 1000-1100 hp with no issues.

Something like the B460 heads I have that your are asking about are too far out for a "Budget" sportsman build nowdays, with all the stuff thats avaliable, I'm just messing with them because they are neat and I'm learing how to machine raw heads.

BigDave65 wrote:Seems to me that if you're building for 1050-1100 HP, the word "budget" no longer applies. You have to buy parts capable of doing the job or you wind up with a bunch of blowed up and broken parts.

X2

bruno wrote:

BigDave65 wrote:Seems to me that if you're building for 1050-1100 HP, the word "budget" no longer applies. You have to buy parts capable of doing the job or you wind up with a bunch of blowed up and broken parts.

i used the word "budget" to give myself a limit on spending for the new build , not using the word " budget " as how cheap i can build 1200 hp , i have 15 to spend on an upgraded build , if i have to still put 8000 plus just to get the c-heads done it will put me out of the "budget" . I do have some sponsorship deals in the works so it will make it easier on my "budget" and of course i have the old parts that i can re-coop some money but that will go back into the chassis, tranny, etc.. IDT, Kaase P-51, TFS A, C-heads ........... I believe the C's and the IDT's would be out of the question ...got to remember the only thing that would be reused on the build is the block, and the D/B

Yeah, I completely understand that Nick. You have to build what is within reason of your budget. We all want the most "bang for the buck" I don't think you'll have a problem with that using the resources you have available here. Good Luck with it.

^^^^^^^ thank you Dave

bruno wrote:

BigDave65 wrote:Seems to me that if you're building for 1050-1100 HP, the word "budget" no longer applies. You have to buy parts capable of doing the job or you wind up with a bunch of blowed up and broken parts.

i used the word "budget" to give myself a limit on spending for the new build , not using the word " budget " as how cheap i can build 1200 hp , i have 15 to spend on an upgraded build , if i have to still put 8000 plus just to get the c-heads done it will put me out of the "budget" . I do have some sponsorship deals in the works so it will make it easier on my "budget" and of course i have the old parts that i can re-coop some money but that will go back into the chassis, tranny, etc.. IDT, Kaase P-51, TFS A, C-heads ........... I believe the C's and the IDT's would be out of the question ...got to remember the only thing that would be reused on the build is the block, and the D/B

I can't come up with anything like $8,000 to finish your excisting C460 castings.......porting, valve job, Ti intake, s.s exh.and including shaft rockers, springs/retainers, cups, keepers, valve seals.

bruno wrote:going to ask a couple of more questions ,

What is the limit on a wet sump deal ? rpm , hp level ?

We have also have had the debate on shaft vs roller/girdle , can you run a roller/girdle deal thru the traps at 7800 -8000 ?


Lem i was doing some research and i pulled up a thread from speed talk this is what you had posted :

479 cfm with a 2.380" valve...45* angle valve . Butt kicking deal for PG deal for drag racing . Keith is correct to ask about the "C" head.....power band is higher . Sorry to ask too many questions.....but is this a pull truck ? , 3000# door car with a glide ? , or a r.e.d. @ 1800# ?
I do know that you ask for 1150 hp...but...in certain applications , the "A" stuff can be much quicker than the peak power would indicate


here is the complete thread ---- http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8296&hilit=a460

My question is have gain anymore info on these heads , meaning r & d/technology throughout the last 5 years ? You had made reference to phillips deal making 400-500 passes and only replacing rockers and springs( at 300 passes) , have we made an improvement on those numbers thru out the years with newer technology or better yet metalology

More power is available than 5 years ago....be the cyl. heads P51, SCJ FRPP, A460 or C460.

Nick, the power level you are looking for is about what we made with my C head deal. It wasn't an over board build, but more of a solid long lasting low maintenance build. Use good components and all will be well. We went with Ti valves on the intake side, but kept the exhaust SS. After the castings are CNC ported, the chambers are going to be a lot bigger than advertised. If you use Charlie's program, Lem will know what to get for pistons to get you to the desired C/R.

I might as well throw my 2 cents in here. First of all, MAINTENANCE will be required; that's just the way it is; or stay home.
I would use the CNC ported, 18 head bolt A460 heads from TFS with Ti valves and get slight overbore pistons for your present short block to 588 cid with those A460 heads. Use good quality 7/16" pushrods and steel rockers. Studs and a girdle will get the job done.
Get a sheet metal 2x4 Dominator manifold made with short/large enough runners conducive with higher RPM, (7,800 to 8,100), along with the nitrous. Use a 4.500" stroke to keep the piston speed under 100 FT/SEC maximum with light pistons and pins but, the nitrous does limit that.
Use a low oil volume Pro Stock style dry-sump oiling system.
That would be pushin' your $15.000 budget, even with already having the block.

(Already been there with over 1150 horsepower NA and that customer gets the whole engine freshened every other year although, HE stays "on top" of the maintenance changing whatever necessary valve springs and running the valve lash and such).

Randy, How many passes does that customer normally put on that engine?

rmcomprandy wrote:I might as well throw my 2 cents in here. First of all, MAINTENANCE will be required; that's just the way it is; or stay home.
I would use the CNC ported, 18 head bolt A460 heads from TFS with Ti valves and get slight overbore pistons for your present short block to 588 cid with those A460 heads. Use good quality 7/16" pushrods and steel rockers. Studs and a girdle will get the job done.
Get a sheet metal 2x4 Dominator manifold made with short/large enough runners conducive with higher RPM, (7,800 to 8,100), along with the nitrous. Use a 4.500" stroke to keep the piston speed under 100 FT/SEC maximum with light pistons and pins but, the nitrous does limit that.
Use a low oil volume Pro Stock style dry-sump oiling system.
That would be pushin' your $15.000 budget, even with already having the block.

(Already been there with over 1150 horsepower NA and that customer gets the whole engine freshened every other year although, HE stays "on top" of the maintenance changing whatever necessary valve springs and running the valve lash and such).

you make it sound like its a bad thing

My thoughts on the subject;

1. There aren't "all these" 1000 Hp P-51 headed engines out there. To the best of my knowledge, there are four P-51 headed engines above 900 Hp. Three of them have been dynoed here in Owensboro, then Fabio's in Oklahoma.

2. Nick, if you are going to spray as much as I think you are, then I'd suggest moving away from the smaller lightweight heads such as the OEM CJ style heads, and go immediately to at least an 18 bolt head for the advantage of the additional clamping force. That means the TFS A-460 18 bolt, or the FRPP C-460, or the Pro-Filer 205, or the Thor and maybe some others I haven't seen.

3. IMO the best big horsepower bang for the buck, is the assembled TFS A-460 heads. They are a very good head with stainless steel valves and stud mounted rockers. I personally own a set. However,,,,,,,,,if there are no rules restrictions limiting you to A-460 heads,,,,,,,,,,,and if you are going to use a titanium intake valve and shaft mounted rockers, then I agree with Dave, that you might as well go ahead and move up to the C-460 heads.

I've made the mistake that I'm warning you not to make. Krisse's engine has TFS A-460 heads, and then because I am always very concerned about valve weight, I installed titanium intake valves, and I used W.W. Engineering shaft mounted rockers. This combo has performed very well over the last three years and Krisse won the Div 3 Jegs SuperQuick Championship with it last year,,,,but in hindsight, I might as well gone ahead and stepped up to the C-460 heads which require the shaft rockers.

4. The cost of prepping FRPP C-460 heads is not as expensive as you think Nick. Step one is the basic cost of the heads, which you aready have. Then the following;

a. Complete CNC porting, honing the guides and competition valve job, with every port flow tested $1575

b. I strongly suggest you let me do my pushrod program. If your engine builder has ever built a C-460 headed engine, he will know why. It is $100 for the intakes and $160 for both the intakes and exhaust. If some other head porter doesn't know anything about a pushrod program for C-460 heads, then you probably don't want to use him as your head porter.

c. Count on $2000 for a full set of sixteen titanium valves, or if you want to go half and half, you'll have about $1160 in the valves.

d. You'll have about $750 to $800 in valve springs, titanium retainers, cups, locks, shims and seals.

e. The shaft mounted rockers will run you around $1500

So besides the basic cost of the heads, around $1800 or so, (it's been a while since I checked). You will have about $5100 to $5200 in the half and half combo, including the rockers. That's less than the $8000 you mentioned.

Hope this helps,
Charlie