cubic inch vs. "the budget"

bruno wrote:

rmcomprandy wrote:I might as well throw my 2 cents in here. First of all, MAINTENANCE will be required; that's just the way it is; or stay home.
I would use the CNC ported, 18 head bolt A460 heads from TFS with Ti valves and get slight overbore pistons for your present short block to 588 cid with those A460 heads. Use good quality 7/16" pushrods and steel rockers. Studs and a girdle will get the job done.
Get a sheet metal 2x4 Dominator manifold made with short/large enough runners conducive with higher RPM, (7,800 to 8,100), along with the nitrous. Use a 4.500" stroke to keep the piston speed under 100 FT/SEC maximum with light pistons and pins but, the nitrous does limit that.
Use a low oil volume Pro Stock style dry-sump oiling system.
That would be pushin' your $15.000 budget, even with already having the block.

(Already been there with over 1150 horsepower NA and that customer gets the whole engine freshened every other year although, HE stays "on top" of the maintenance changing whatever necessary valve springs and running the valve lash and such).

you make it sound like its a bad thing

It certainly is NOT a bad thing, quite the opposite as it is normally an enjoyable thing ... I am trying to make it clear that it will not be a "turn the key and race it" till you have it freshened. Rather stringent maintenance IS required.
Horsepower does have its drawbacks and you need to be prepared for what is to come. If you're ready for it, then it can be great.

Big Dave ...
He says it slows down after about 75 passes, (totally understandable, lol). But, it usually comes back after 120 or so for honing, new pistons and rings along with whatever else it needs. That usually lasts to the end of the second summer.
He started out with a cast manifold and a single Dominator with a smaller cam and not as much compression, (1,000 RPM lower power band also), and then it would make it well past 100 runs before it slowed down.

bruno ive got a 4.605 bore 4.50 stroke and inverted diamond pistons with a set of out of the box c-heads and intake with a 600 inch roller cam and make 800 hp ,ive been 9.38 @145 with a 1.26 sixty @ 3300 + pounds - stock style suspension

pretty sure little bit bigger cam and minimal head work and i can make 925-950 and still be able to drive her as much as i want on the street,i would build the biggest you can afford or quit messing around and put a 101 mm turbo on it and never look back

Charlie,

Thank you for the response . But i'm curious to your #3 statement -----

3. IMO the best big horsepower bang for the buck, is the assembled TFS A-460 heads.


For the 5100-5200 what kind of TFS A-460 cylinder head could be had meaning cnc'ed/ chamber softing/ custom touches more for the nitrous application? Which one would accelerate down the track quicker? Which one you you rather have for an all out nitrous build? Which head has shown better results on the hose ?

Thxs Nick

badcoupe wrote:bruno ive got a 4.605 bore 4.50 stroke and inverted diamond pistons with a set of out of the box c-heads and intake with a 600 inch roller cam and make 800 hp ,ive been 9.38 @145 with a 1.26 sixty @ 3300 + pounds - stock style suspension

pretty sure little bit bigger cam and minimal head work and i can make 925-950 and still be able to drive her as much as i want on the street,i would build the biggest you can afford or quit messing around and put a 101 mm turbo on it and never look back

Thank you sir for the input , but im looking for an all out drag race build , my existing build right know puts me at 8.9x to 9.0x n/a @ 154-157mph i really would like to be in the mid to low 8's n/a . unfortunately its not in the budget for any forced induction. but again thank you for the input

rmcomprandy wrote:

bruno wrote:

rmcomprandy wrote:I might as well throw my 2 cents in here. First of all, MAINTENANCE will be required; that's just the way it is; or stay home.
I would use the CNC ported, 18 head bolt A460 heads from TFS with Ti valves and get slight overbore pistons for your present short block to 588 cid with those A460 heads. Use good quality 7/16" pushrods and steel rockers. Studs and a girdle will get the job done.
Get a sheet metal 2x4 Dominator manifold made with short/large enough runners conducive with higher RPM, (7,800 to 8,100), along with the nitrous. Use a 4.500" stroke to keep the piston speed under 100 FT/SEC maximum with light pistons and pins but, the nitrous does limit that.
Use a low oil volume Pro Stock style dry-sump oiling system.
That would be pushin' your $15.000 budget, even with already having the block.

(Already been there with over 1150 horsepower NA and that customer gets the whole engine freshened every other year although, HE stays "on top" of the maintenance changing whatever necessary valve springs and running the valve lash and such).

you make it sound like its a bad thing

It certainly is NOT a bad thing, quite the opposite as it is normally an enjoyable thing ... I am trying to make it clear that it will not be a "turn the key and race it" till you have it freshened. Rather stringent maintenance IS required.
Horsepower does have its drawbacks and you need to be prepared for what is to come. If you're ready for it, then it can be great.

Big Dave ...
He says it slows down after about 75 passes, (totally understandable, lol). But, it usually comes back after 120 or so for honing, new pistons and rings along with whatever else it needs. That usually lasts to the end of the second summer.
He started out with a cast manifold and a single Dominator with a smaller cam and not as much compression, (1,000 RPM lower power band also), and then it would make it well past 100 runs before it slowed down.

yes i understand Randy, and i will have to get into the habit of doing maintenance on the new piece. I have just been spoiled or just lucky on this last build , its been over 3 years since it was completed, bad nos tunes, sitting in the garage for most of its life never once loosen up a rocker, same hardware (springs, pushrods,lifters for over 350-400 passes --- they have been on the 521 and the 562 ) Im just going to have to get into a strict regiment on this new build.

all i was saying is if you build same motor as mine but with full cnc ported heads bigger cam and more compression -you will easily make 1100 hp + and it doesnt

second thing is - if lem and charlie are your engine builders why are not not asking them this ? s they know there stuff and can build you big power with out all the drama

badcoupe wrote:second thing is - if lem and charlie are your engine builders why are not not asking them this ? s they know there stuff and can build you big power with out all the drama

for folks that dont know , and i dont see anything wrong with put this decision phase on a forum. Im not building a class specific vehicle were everything has to be a secret.

thats all , no drama here

badcoupe wrote:second thing is - if lem and charlie are your engine builders why are not not asking them this ? s they know there stuff and can build you big power with out all the drama

This is a forum. A place to bounce ideas off each other. Sometimes you want to try something just a little different. Lem and Charlie are okay if you dont want to do everything as prescribed.

Curt wrote:

badcoupe wrote:second thing is - if lem and charlie are your engine builders why are not not asking them this ? s they know there stuff and can build you big power with out all the drama

This is a forum. A place to bounce ideas off each other. Sometimes you want to try something just a little different. Lem and Charlie are okay if you dont want to do everything as prescribed.

Are you needing to go this route for an index, or are you just looking to go faster? I'm not wanting this to be taken wrong, but what you have is a very stout engine for bracket racing, and if you go to this level, there is a lot more to it. When I did my move up this year, by the time I was done with everything, the engine upgrade was only a minor outlay of the $$$$. To hold that much power, you are going to need a killer suspension, tire combo, a cage that will cert + the fee for the cert, probably a trans upgrade, and more safety items. Be very carefull and honest with yourself on what you will need to do this, so you aren't sitting on the sidelines wishing you were racing. What do you have for suspension, and rear axle parts now?

schmitty wrote:Are you needing to go this route for an index, or are you just looking to go faster? I'm not wanting this to be taken wrong, but what you have is a very stout engine for bracket racing, and if you go to this level, there is a lot more to it. When I did my move up this year, by the time I was done with everything, the engine upgrade was only a minor outlay of the $$$$. To hold that much power, you are going to need a killer suspension, tire combo, a cage that will cert + the fee for the cert, probably a trans upgrade, and more safety items. Be very carefull and honest with yourself on what you will need to do this, so you aren't sitting on the sidelines wishing you were racing. What do you have for suspension, and rear axle parts now?

I completely understand were you are coming from Schmitty. Im ready to step it up to the next level , i mean shoot do i just throw a 4.6 arm in the existing build and see if those eddys can move some more air and change the cam up ????? lots of options .......and i do understand the other expences that go along with it .....


humm wonder if we can get another 75-100 hp from those eddys with a diff cam , .5-.75 more compression and another 40 cubes ........

im gonna miss my eddies

what are the details of the existing build ? cam specs , do you have the flow #'s ?

humm wonder if we can get another 75-100 hp from those eddys with a diff cam , .5-.75 more compression and another 40 cubes ........

im gonna miss my eddies [/quote]

You probably CAN get another 100 horsepower with your present short block using well modified Blue Thunder heads, a tunnel ram with Dominators and REV it a 1,000 RPM higher.

bruno wrote:

schmitty wrote:Are you needing to go this route for an index, or are you just looking to go faster? I'm not wanting this to be taken wrong, but what you have is a very stout engine for bracket racing, and if you go to this level, there is a lot more to it. When I did my move up this year, by the time I was done with everything, the engine upgrade was only a minor outlay of the $$$$. To hold that much power, you are going to need a killer suspension, tire combo, a cage that will cert + the fee for the cert, probably a trans upgrade, and more safety items. Be very carefull and honest with yourself on what you will need to do this, so you aren't sitting on the sidelines wishing you were racing. What do you have for suspension, and rear axle parts now?

I completely understand were you are coming from Schmitty. Im ready to step it up to the next level , i mean shoot do i just throw a 4.6 arm in the existing build and see if those eddys can move some more air and change the cam up ????? lots of options .......and i do understand the other expences that go along with it .....


humm wonder if we can get another 75-100 hp from those eddys with a diff cam , .5-.75 more compression and another 40 cubes ........

im gonna miss my eddies

to many options... ya just gota pick one and role... you have the C's looks like the option has been chosen...C's, 4.5 stroke,lots a spray=awesome will happen...or drive train carnage...

Nick,

1. When you were young and in school, did any of your teachers ever complain about you not paying attention in class? What I meant by my saying that "the assembled TFS A-460 heads being the best big horsepower bang for the buck", was just that. If your budget is limited to stainless steel valves and stud mounted rockers, then the A-460 heads are as good as you can do. They are at the top of the line.

2. Do you understand what I said about your "Eddies" being a light weight head with only 10 bolts? If you do anything to make more power than the 847 NA Hp you are currently making with them, (and no telling how much on spray), you will be increasing cylinder pressure and start blowing head gaskets. For as much nitrous as you spray, you need to move to an 18 bolt head, because of the better (more even) clamping force on the head gaskets.

3. An engine is an air pump. The better you can make it breathe, the more power it will make. One very good way of increasing it's breathing ability, is to use better flowing heads. There are several heads out there, that are much better flowing than OEM sytle CJ Edelbrocks.

4. Let me make a Kentucky analogy,,,to continue to use the "Eddies" on a bigger CID engine (as you have mentioned), will have the same effect as sponging a Thourghbred race horse.

Charlie

4. Let me make a Kentucky analogy,,,to continue to use the "Eddies" on a bigger CID engine (as you have mentioned), will have the same effect as sponging a Thourghbred race horse.

LOL Charlie, you might have to explain this one to us non-Kentuckians! I get what you're saying, just don't know what "sponging" is.

Nick, if you want to keep your heads.......4.500" crank, .100" shorter rod and use you excisting pistons. It'll be a 588" with more compression than the 562". With the extra compression and cubes a 'bigger' cam would be of benifit.

BigDave65 wrote:4. Let me make a Kentucky analogy,,,to continue to use the "Eddies" on a bigger CID engine (as you have mentioned), will have the same effect as sponging a Thourghbred race horse.

LOL Charlie, you might have to explain this one to us non-Kentuckians! I get what you're saying, just don't know what "sponging" is.

Dave, We might NOTwant to know what sponging is

racnrick wrote:

BigDave65 wrote:4. Let me make a Kentucky analogy,,,to continue to use the "Eddies" on a bigger CID engine (as you have mentioned), will have the same effect as sponging a Thourghbred race horse.

LOL Charlie, you might have to explain this one to us non-Kentuckians! I get what you're saying, just don't know what "sponging" is.

Dave, We might NOTwant to know what sponging is

It probably isn't even legal

jjmstang wrote:

racnrick wrote:

BigDave65 wrote:4. Let me make a Kentucky analogy,,,to continue to use the "Eddies" on a bigger CID engine (as you have mentioned), will have the same effect as sponging a Thourghbred race horse.

LOL Charlie, you might have to explain this one to us non-Kentuckians! I get what you're saying, just don't know what "sponging" is.

Dave, We might NOTwant to know what sponging is

It probably isn't even legal

Double D !!!!

you could stick sponges in the horses noses as a restriction , maybe for training purposes , or to slow the horse down

bruno wrote:you could stick sponges in the horses noses as a restriction , maybe for training purposes , or to slow the horse down

Good one Nicky

The World of Agriculture is in for a new dawn with Nick... Down on the Farm !!!!

res0rli9 wrote:

bruno wrote:you could stick sponges in the horses noses as a restriction , maybe for training purposes , or to slow the horse down

Good one Nicky

its true .... i wasnt trying to be funny .....like humm restrictor plate racing